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RWarehall: Star Control was created by Accolade of which Fred and Paul were but two of many programmers. As such they are no more the creators than any of the other programmers.
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OneFiercePuppy: No, no, no. StarCon was created by Toys for Bob, and was published by Accolade. Of course you can't have a game without a publisher, but TfB was the developer. By all rights they should get the credit for the game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Control
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Control_II
But again, the question isn't "credit for the game" because that has nothing to do with any legal distinction, but rather who owns the Trademark rights. As far as I can tell, (doing a quick Google search), the 3 words fame, reputation and goodwill show up in many trademark claims and seem to be a standard and are not something created by Stardock to defame Fred and Paul. Again, if Paul and Fred had consulted their lawyer before talking to Ars Technica (or if Ars Technica would have actually done any real research or talked to their own lawyer) they would realize that was not a slight against them.
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RWarehall: There is nothing "bizarre" about that phrase at all. It's clickbait media taking you for a ride.

To describe "fame, reputation and goodwill" to a Trademark is a common practice. To describe the entity owning the Trademark as the create is as well. The fact that some people want to use legal phrasing as a personal attack against the plaintiff is what I consider "bizarre'. Ars Technica should know much better. Shame on them for stirring up trouble over nothing.
did anybody even bother to read the Ars Technica article ?
the mentioned phrase only comes up in the article in the list describing Stardock's main allegations. with no further comment to it.
The controversy of Stardock alleging that Ford and Paul are not the creators of Star Control doesn't involve that phrase at all.

the claim from Stardock that Ars Technica highlights because it seems to "contradict reality":

Upon information and belief, and contrary to the common public understanding and what they have portrayed to the public, Reiche and Ford may not have created any of the artwork, animation or characters incorporated in the games, or otherwise substantially contributed to the authorship of Star Control I and Star Control II.

Reiche and Ford’s advertising themselves as being the “creators” of the Classic Star Control Games is false and misleading, and has been made in an attempt to dishonestly benefit from the goodwill and reputation associated with the STAR CONTROL Mark to which they have never had rights.
Post edited February 24, 2018 by immi101
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RWarehall: Star Control was created by Accolade of which Fred and Paul were but two of many programmers. As such they are no more the creators than any of the other programmers.

(snip)

Fred and Paul better have more than "we were original programmers and when Accolade went under the rights went poof so must be ours now". And this media warfare may harm them worse. The more they complain publicly that Star Control belongs to them, the more they are tarnishing the trademark, thus the more damages they may have to pay Stardock if a court determines that Stardock has clear title.
That is simply not true at all. Ford and Reiche were not only the leads on SC1/2; they did the majority of work (and went months without pay to finish SC2). Ford was the lead programmer and did the majority of the coding; Reiche was the lead designer/writer and created the universe. This is a well-known fact. The original contract very clearly names Reiche and Ford as the ones who will design and implement three games, not just people who Accolade are bringing on to help with their project. The original game releases have a copyright notice with their names, and Accolade had to get permission to make SC3 without them. They are in fact the creators of Star Control.

Here's what Greg Johnson (an important game designer in his own right) who was actually there said on Stardock's forum:

I'm Greg Johnson. I was there through the entire development of StarControl 1 and 2. I don't want to comment on ownership or trademarks. I've been a game developer for 34 years and questions of ownership and legalities of rights are not always clear, or for that matter fair. Disputes like this are really best settled in friendly ways where everyone can win, since legal battles just suck money and time and create stress and bad feelings. Life is too short for that. What I can and will say is that Paul and Fred created both of those games. It was really the two of them, and others like me and Erol and whomever just contracted and did bits and pieces under Paul's direction. This Universe, Story, Characters and Gameplay all come from the amazing mind of Paul. It's pointless for people on a board to guess what's really going on behind the scenes or to judge who is right or wrong. I wish Paul and Fred and Brad and Stardock a friendly and mutually beneficial, mutually respectful resolution to this. And I'm sorry it's been so stressful for all of you. It's easy to get dug in. Good luck in finding a solution. And to all the fans - best to just hang in there and wait. And don't judge people harshly when you don't really know what's up. Lets all cross our fingers that they will find answers.
Post edited February 24, 2018 by kzer_za
You know, this attempt by Stardock to cast doubt over the primary authorship of the SC games makes me look at this post in a whole other light: https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants

We're hearing about this now because of Fred and Paul's counter suit, but Stardock apparently filed theirs some time in December. This blog post appeared in mid-November, it almost looks like they're trying to sow the seeds of doubt in an incredibly insidious way. It's great to acknowledge the collaborators, but I suspect an ulterior motive.

Very nice of Greg Johnson to show up and say it really was mostly Fred and Paul though.
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SirPrimalform: You know, this attempt by Stardock to cast doubt over the primary authorship of the SC games makes me look at this post in a whole other light: https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants
The first thing Brad does in that post is to include the front and back covers of the original PC release of Star Control II. Here's where I noticed a funny little thing, of which I provide a snip attached below:

Game © 1992 Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III. All other materials © 1992, Accolade, Inc. Star Control II is a trademark of Accolade, Inc.
To me, that sums up pretty much the actual state of things regarding Star Control. The game itself is the property of its two creators. Marketing material, box art, whatever, and the name "Star Control" was the property of Accolade, now presumably in the hands of Stardock.

Yet here we have Stardock trying to claim Star Control as his own by diminishing the role Fred and Paul played in developing the games, as though they were simply two guys hired by Accolade to manage the team responsible of the two titles. Bizarre.

Reminds of that one time that Brad tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes by blaming everyone and everything but him on the clusterfuck that was Elemental: War of Magic when it first launched, despite being clear that it was his responsibility, and one clearly demonstrated by his own public statements prior releasing the game.
Attachments:
Post edited February 24, 2018 by Lashiec
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SirPrimalform: You know, this attempt by Stardock to cast doubt over the primary authorship of the SC games makes me look at this post in a whole other light: https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants

We're hearing about this now because of Fred and Paul's counter suit, but Stardock apparently filed theirs some time in December. This blog post appeared in mid-November, it almost looks like they're trying to sow the seeds of doubt in an incredibly insidious way. It's great to acknowledge the collaborators, but I suspect an ulterior motive.

Very nice of Greg Johnson to show up and say it really was mostly Fred and Paul though.
Yep. Wardell probably thought it was pretty subtle and clever move, but now the timing looks quite suspicious in retrospect. According to Fred and Paul's complaint, Wardell started threatening litigation in October even before Ghosts was announced (presumably they have e-mails to back this up, especially since they gave exact dates for most of it).

And I wanted to give Stardock the benefit of the doubt. I'm a founder (at the cheaper tier); I even defended them online in the past. Even after the controversy went public I wanted to believe it was a misunderstanding and both sides were acting in good faith. But Stardock looks really bad now.
Post edited February 24, 2018 by kzer_za
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Lashiec: The first thing Brad does in that post is to include the front and back covers of the original PC release of Star Control II. Here's where I noticed a funny little thing, of which I provide a snip attached below: To me, that sums up pretty much the actual state of things regarding Star Control. The game itself is the property of its two creators. Marketing material, box art, whatever, and the name "Star Control" was the property of Accolade, now presumably in the hands of Stardock.
Absolutely. Other people have already pointed out the copyright notices on the actual discs too. There is no doubt that the creators AND copyright holders of SC1+2 are Fred and Paul.

So on the one hand we seem to have Stardock claiming that Fred and Paul aren't even the creators let alone copyright holders (which is obviously BS) and on the other hand, F&P claim that the original agreement with Accolade was dissolved and that the trademark (i.e. name etc.) reverted to them.

It really seems like F&P have the stronger case if they can prove the dissolution clauses came into effect. Certainly the mess with Atari/GOG back in 2011 suggests it's true.
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Lashiec: The first thing Brad does in that post is to include the front and back covers of the original PC release of Star Control II. Here's where I noticed a funny little thing, of which I provide a snip attached below: To me, that sums up pretty much the actual state of things regarding Star Control. The game itself is the property of its two creators. Marketing material, box art, whatever, and the name "Star Control" was the property of Accolade, now presumably in the hands of Stardock.
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SirPrimalform: Absolutely. Other people have already pointed out the copyright notices on the actual discs too. There is no doubt that the creators AND copyright holders of SC1+2 are Fred and Paul.

So on the one hand we seem to have Stardock claiming that Fred and Paul aren't even the creators let alone copyright holders (which is obviously BS) and on the other hand, F&P claim that the original agreement with Accolade was dissolved and that the trademark (i.e. name etc.) reverted to them.

It really seems like F&P have the stronger case if they can prove the dissolution clauses came into effect. Certainly the mess with Atari/GOG back in 2011 suggests it's true.
Their argument appears to be that no one owns the trademark because it expired from disuse, not that it reverted back to F&P with the other stuff. NAL, but the dead trademark seems to be more questionable than most of their other points - I imagine that since they got sued first, they decided to just throw the kitchen sink back. If/when there's a settlement I would guess Stardock keeps the trademark, though not with as expansive an interpretation for it as Stardock is claiming.
Post edited February 24, 2018 by kzer_za
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kzer_za: Their argument appears to be that no one owns the trademark because it expired from disuse, not that it reverted back to F&P with the other stuff. NAL, but the dead trademark seems to be more questionable than most of their other points - I imagine that since they got sued first, they decided to just throw the kitchen sink back. If/when there's a settlement I would guess Stardock keeps the trademark, though not with as expansive an interpretation for it as Stardock is claiming.
Ah yes, I misremembered the article. The termination of the Accolade deal causes everything but the trademark to revert, which obviously includes the publishing deals (and in fact the IP for SC3). This makes sense, as F&P's original complaint with Stardock was them selling the old games in bundles with their new game and putting the games on Steam without their permission. So yeah, it's looking like the trademark would indeed have gone Accolade -> Atari -> Stardock, but none of the publishing rights would have gone that way.
Post edited February 24, 2018 by SirPrimalform
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kzer_za: That is simply not true at all.
Who are you to say that just isn't true? And you seem to KNOW a lot. How clearly Fred and Paul are this that and the other thing. Fact is you don't. You have no idea. I have no idea. Just as the rest of us really have no real idea who actually has legal ownership over this.

All of these claims came out of the legal document and need to be viewed in regards to their legal definitions. It's not some guy on a forum claiming "it's a well-known fact". If it were such a "well-known fact", we probably wouldn't have such a legal dispute, Atari wouldn't have sold ownership rights which they may or may not have actually owned, etc.

But since you seem so adamant to bold portions of a quote to support your view, let me throw your quote right back at you...

From Greg Johnson...It's pointless for people on a board to guess what's really going on behind the scenes or to judge who is right or wrong.

But apparently that is what you and so many others are doing because you are too much of a sheep to clickbait media.

You or I are not privy to the legal agreements made, how they are worded, what they entail, and for you to claim some copyright statement from the original game proves anything is just foolish.

This whole "creator" thing is completely overblown. Using legalese, in a court submission, Stardock seems to be pointing out that the Star Control games were made (created) by many individuals who contributed to it in various fashions. That is all there is to it. And frankly, if anything is clear in this situation, that part is clearly true. Not even close to "bizarre". But you can thank the clickbait media for that one.

As I see it, Fred and Paul did themselves a disservice by bringing this up. This will not help them in their legal case at all. Because when this case is decided it will be the actual courts that decide, not the court of public opinion. Judges are usually not very happy when people try to take the case to the public while a court case is in progress.

And given that one aspect of this case is whether the Trademark has been tarnished or damaged by Fred and Paul's actions, if the courts find Stardock owns the rights, then all this chatter is further evidence of that damage and could result in additional damages being awarded to Stardock all due to an ill-advised blog post.
I mean whether or not those two guys built that game on their computers over a period of several months in 1986 or something doesn't make a difference to what a judge decides as the right course of action here in interpreting how the law applies to that document and the current situation based on the legal language set forth in the contract and the arguments supplied by the council.

I say right but I really should say this particular.
From https://forums.stardock.net/486284/page/5 ( Reply #114 )
I'm Greg Johnson. I was there through the entire development of StarControl 1 and 2. I don't want to comment on ownership or trademarks. I've been a game developer for 34 years and questions of ownership and legalities of rights are not always clear, or for that matter fair. Disputes like this are really best settled in friendly ways where everyone can win, since legal battles just suck money and time and create stress and bad feelings. Life is too short for that. What I can and will say is that Paul and Fred created both of those games. It was really the two of them, and others like me and Erol and whomever just contracted and did bits and pieces under Paul's direction. This Universe, Story, Characters and Gameplay all come from the amazing mind of Paul. It's pointless for people on a board to guess what's really going on behind the scenes or to judge who is right or wrong. I wish Paul and Fred and Brad and Stardock a friendly and mutually beneficial, mutually respectful resolution to this. And I'm sorry it's been so stressful for all of you. It's easy to get dug in. Good luck in finding a solution. And to all the fans - best to just hang in there and wait. And don't judge people harshly when you don't really know what's up. Lets all cross our fingers that they will find answers.
You would think the developers would be happy that people want their older games and have an easy legal way to get them.
Oh my! what a shietstorm :(
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RogueXanter: You would think the developers would be happy that people want their older games and have an easy legal way to get them.
Given that it was Fred and Paul who open-sourced SC2 I don't think that's in question. No one is trying to stop the old games being sold outright, both parties just believe they are the ones with the right to sell the old games. Make sense?