Just wondering what are generally considered the best gameplay-focused WRPGs.

In particular, I'm looking for games that:
* Are at least approximately turn-based, with the success of actions being dependent on the character's skill, not the player's skill. (In other words, no action games with RPG elements; the game needs to actually be primarily an RPG.)
* The game should be recognizably be a Western-style RPG, not a Japanese-style one. (Final Fantasy 5 is exellent and all, but it's still a JRPG, which is not what this topic is about.)
* The focus needs to be primarily on the gameplay (which usually means things like combat), not on story, characters, or dialog. (For example, I'm looking for something more like Icewind Dale, not Planescape: Torment; while many might think highly of the latter, it's clearly not gameplay focused, as people tend to praise the dialog and writing rather than the combat.)

So, what games of this sort are generally considered the best?

Edit: Why the low rating?

Runner-ups:

Temple of Elemental Evil
Banner Saga, Banner Saga 2, Banner Saga 3
Underrail

Pool of Radiance.

Might and Magic - especially the earlier games. MM1 has no auto-mapping thus I typically play for a bit then skip it in favor of MM2 onward. MM6 has hybrid combat where you can swap between real-time and turn based. As the series is known for it ridiculous stacks of enemies, you might find turn-based the way to go for combat.
https://www.gog.com/game/might_and_magic_6_limited_edition

Wizardry - is also turn-based
https://www.gog.com/game/wizardry_6_7
https://www.gog.com/game/wizardry_8



There's a bunch of games based on various versions of D&D on GOG, most of which are more real-time than turn based. However as someone that usually prefers turn-based RPGs and struggles with most action RPGs due to arthritic wrists, the real-time nature of these games is not so out there that you don't feel like you're playing an RPG game. This would include both the much older games like Dungeon Hack and Eye of the Beholder as well as the less older ones like Neverwinter Nights. You're skill as a player is going to be based more on your character build than how fast you can click a button to make a sword swing.

Hello dtgreene!

For me it definitely would be "Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny" (originally "Die Schicksalsklinge - Teil 1 der Nordlandtrilogie" in German).

It has some quite deep roleplaying mechanics (without being focussed on conversations and the so-called choice-&-consequences illusion), many intertwined systems, and lots of non-linear exploration!

The first one in the series is really archaic, but that should not be an issue for you, dtgreene.
Each part of the trilogy has a completely different focus. I would say, the first is more about the exploration and travel during the adventure.
The second one although expanding on the travel mechanics and risks felt somehow smaller or tighter (or more limiting) in my experience. It also increased both the story aspects (despite failing in delivering a cohesive one) and many restrictions to the players liberty of when and where to go exploring. The most significant improvements were made in the combat engine and equipment options--others might think in the graphics (move to an actual realtime 3d engine), but I prefer the original's pseudo 3d similar to the Bard's Tale.
The third removed the overland and sea travel entirely, and replaced it with a much more story focus in and around one city, and puzzles that sometimes border on point-&-click adventure territory.

Kind regards,
foxgog

so many good games
western rpgs are the best

I've played way too many games to talk about "the best", but based on recent experience, all the following were great:

- Slay the Spire (assuming you don't mind cards being thrown in)
- ADOM
- Battle Brothers (technically a rpg/strategy hybrid)
- Tyranny
- Any of the Shadowrun games
- Disciples 1 & 2 (technically, a rpg/strategy hybrid)
- Fates of Ort (about 66% completed so far and it is just great, not quite turn-based, but things only move forward when you move, so...)

PS: I didn't verify that all the above games were made in the West, but imo, they are not Japanese-styled rpgs.

I don't know what's generally considered the best, but the best one I know is Guild Wars. Quite saddening considering it's an online-only game and considered an MMO by many. There's a huge set of skills dependent on redistributable attributes for ten different classes. There are many different ways to compose a team (4 to 12 characters with 8 skills each) which results in a great amount of different playstyles, of which a good amount are competitively good with eachother. The best equipment is cheap and easy to acquire, so progression works horizontally by acquiring more skills to have new skill combinations available when facing foes that work differently (! it's not just rising health and damage numbers, it's different/better skill sets) than those you encountered before.NPCs, including the hostile ones we fight all over the place, are mostly bound by the same rules as players and their NPC companions: They work off the same pool of skills, have limited attribute values and roughly the same defensive base stats. If just the AI were a bit better the entire game would feel like casual PvP because of this smart design. However, Guild Wars is not turn-based. People often say that its combat is a bit static though. When you decide to perform an action, you're committing to it. You attack? Then you're standing still for the duration of the attack and a foe that was running away from you takes the hit, but is then unreachable. You use a skill? Then you're standing still while using it, and are standing still for another 0.75 seconds when you finish using the skill successfully.
While they play rather differently, I had the most Guild Wars vibes in Dragon Age Origins (especially programming the companions' AI) and Divinity Original Sin 2 (rudimentary skill and attribute system with skill-line-combos in a party RPG). Both games happen to be turn-based RPGs, but I suppose you're aware of these games anyway.

Dragon Age Origins is one of the better WRPG's out in the wild.

The new Baldurs Gate 3 will probably reach similar if not higher heights

The also newly released Solaster Crown of the magister is already regarded one of the best tabletop conversions we had in years, not to mention a tactical marvel

just noticed Divinity original sin part deux has an unique playercount of 93k, only on steam

i guess that is the number one, certainly with console sales in mind

this also will probably mean that baldurs gate 3 will turn out the best of the best once fully released

Die belgen ook

there ya go, over 1 million sold copies

https://www.pcgamesn.com/divinity-original-sin-2/divinity-original-sin-2-steam-launch-record-breaking

well, this article reveals a completely different attitude with Dragon Age inquisition selling well over 6 million units

[url=https://gamerant.com/highest-selling-games-developed-bioware-ranked-how-much-sold/#:~:text=The%20game%27s%20sales%20rose%20steadily%20as%20time%20progressed,Gate%20II%3A%20Shadows%20Of%20Amn%20-%203.5%20Million]https://gamerant.com/highest-selling-games-developed-bioware-ranked-how-much-sold/#:~:text=The%20game%27s%20sales%20rose%20steadily%20as%20time%20progressed,Gate%20II%3A%20Shadows%20Of%20Amn%20-%203.5%20Million[/url]

other entries are of course baldurs gate at 3,2 million mass effect at 7 million and Knights of the Old republic at 3,7 million

For now it seems the audience, how young and deluded ever, have spoken




( it turns out Pillars of eternity 2 was actually a big flop )

These games don't really fit.

Ultima 7:
* Is not turn-based.
* The battle system is *horrible*. In particular, people who recommend this game are not recommending it for the combat, and it feels like the only thing this game really has to offer is story and dialog, so this game would not qualify as gameplay-focused.

Incidentally, I think Ultima 6 has the best battle system in the series, but it unfortunately (for purposes of this topic) de-emphasizes combat. Ultima 3 has the best and most balanced class system, but that isn't one of the games you mentioned. (Incidentally, I sometimes prefer U3 to U4, mainly because the latter requires reagents to cast even the most basic of spells while the former does not.) The games don't have to be made in the west; they just need to be in a style similar to Western games.

(For example, Cris Tales was made in the west, but my understanding is that it's a JRPG despite that; same with Costume Quest and Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark (the latter being a Japanese-style SRPG like Final Fantasy Tactics).)

Edit: Why the low rating?

Avernum, the king of the stealth hit.

You probably already own a copy or 6.



Or if you prefer, Avernum: Escape from the Pit, the remake of the first game.



Or if you prefer Exile: Escape from the Pit, the game that was remade as Avernum.

I guess Krynn and Eye Of The Beholder trilogies are a bit too old...

But if you like the Dragon Age series that was mentioned, you might want to check out Neverwinter Nights, too.

Also, LynXsh is right: Fallout 1 & 2 are awesome. Play them. If you have not played the yet, play them now. If you have played them before you know how awesome they are and therefore you should play them now.

StarCrawlers might worth be checking out. It's a first-person dungeon-crawler with grid-like movement, which can be comparable to Wizardry. The main missions are hand-crafted dungeons, and there are smaller randomly-generated dungeons for grinding/farming. Also, there is little in the way of story.