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dtgreene: And in doing so, you are incorrect; a person's gender does not have to match the person's assigned sex.

Also, referring to some people as "normal" implies that the rest are "abnormal", which is a rather insulting term, so we use terms like able-bodied, neurotypical, straight, and, in this context, cisgender, in order to avoid stigmatizing the minority.
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Martek: No no no no NO.

I was obviously using "normal person" is in "lay person" or "non-expert in the lingo".

If that wasn't obvious - well then you now have my clarification - right here in this post.

Your reaction is "typical" of how today's SJW's "react".

I'm not saying you're a "SJW" - because I don't know you - but your reaction is very typical of how "they" react.
Then use the term "lay person".

Also, I should point out that the term "SJW" is not typically used by people who believe in social justice, so by using that term, it is evident that you do not believe that people should be treated equally and fairly.
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Martek: No no no no NO.

I was obviously using "normal person" is in "lay person" or "non-expert in the lingo".

If that wasn't obvious - well then you now have my clarification - right here in this post.

Your reaction is "typical" of how today's SJW's "react".

I'm not saying you're a "SJW" - because I don't know you - but your reaction is very typical of how "they" react.
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dtgreene: Then use the term "lay person".

Also, I should point out that the term "SJW" is not typically used by people who believe in social justice, so by using that term, it is evident that you do not believe that people should be treated equally and fairly.
I'll use the terms I deem I want to use. What I won't do is have some other "lay person" (i.e.; YOU) tell me what to say or what is the "correct" leftist-fascist lingo that I should use - so that the thought-police don't come down on me. You can talk that way - but I won't.

Your repeated attempts to "correct" me are evidence of your willingness to marginalize me and folks "like" me - and show a willingness not to treat us fairly and equally.

It also illustrates what I've long noted - that all the "fancy rules for what is the proper way to say things" are just used as a weapon to "prove" that others are "unworthy" - to control the conversation - as you are attempting to do with me - showing me your "true face" - as someone that would treat me unequally and unfairly because I don't "talk" in ways you "approve" of. You're the one marginalizing - not me.
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dtgreene: Also, I should point out that the term "SJW" is not typically used by people who believe in social justice, so by using that term, it is evident that you do not believe that people should be treated equally and fairly.
To be fair, most of those who do believe in social justice don't seem believe that people should be treated equally, either. That's been my experience, at least; I've seen a lot of disgusting stuff like this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TransSupport/comments/2ks7k2/who_should_i_take_this_up_with_im_literally/

(I didn't hyperlink because I remember you don't like not knowing where links lead.)
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Shadowstalker16: Offensive by whom? And why should I obey that person? When is a word considered ''reclaimed'' and who decides that?
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dtgreene: Offensive by those who have traditionally been the target of the slur (in this case, transgender women). Said word could only be considered reclaimed once the majority of said group has no problem with it anymore.

Note that this applies to any word that could be considered a slur; "nigger" is another well-known example (though, in that case, the target is black people).
All of them find it offensive? So basically, this majority in transgender activism is a regulatory body that speaks on behalf of trans people?

So after the council deems a word as reclaimed, anyone can use it?
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dtgreene: Also, I should point out that the term "SJW" is not typically used by people who believe in social justice, so by using that term, it is evident that you do not believe that people should be treated equally and fairly.
Another one? Ok. How do you know what all those people who use those words believe in? And why do you believe this particular set of ideas and opinions called ''social justice'' is objectively correct?
Post edited March 30, 2016 by Shadowstalker16
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dtgreene: And in doing so, you are incorrect; a person's gender does not have to match the person's assigned sex.

Also, referring to some people as "normal" implies that the rest are "abnormal", which is a rather insulting term, so we use terms like able-bodied, neurotypical, straight, and, in this context, cisgender, in order to avoid stigmatizing the minority.
In this case, though it is true. To think that someone who identifies as less than 1% of the population is abnormal is indeed factually correct. Don't be insulted by facts. Being abnormal is not a bad thing. In fact, most people strive to break from the chains of normalcy. Minorities are by definition abnormalities. Why does the truth offend people?

Also, offensive words are offensive regardless of who uses them. "It's only ok if I say it" is just a method of control, and controlling people is bad according to you.

I don't understand the concept of "assigned sex" (who assigned it? Those know-nothing doctors who looked at you and said yep, that's a boy, or that's a girl? Or that pesky God who decided you should be a boy or girl). But I'll roll with it.I'm honestly ok with offending less than 1 out of every 1000 people I meet. Plain and simple things others do offend me and that's ok, right?

To me, "SJW" is a term that refers to extremist people on the other side of the coin. Their opinions are the only one that matters and they're ok subjugating the rights of others to get their messages out. When someone challenges them on it, they fall back to "Shouldn't we all be treated equally?" and play like that's all they've been campaigning for the whole time. I don't find you to be like that DT. I don't like many things about you, but your arguments are usually at least on the right side of the line, in my opinion.

What's fair isn't always equal. That such a small portion of the population should have so much time dedicated to discussing it is not equal, obviously, but many think it's fair. I don't care, personally. I don't like the idea of people being transgender, I don't understand the desire and see it as a mental disorder. Hate me all you want. Call me a bigot. You have that right as much as I do. That's how I see it. But I won't treat the people who I see any differently than I do now, which is the same as anyone else unless they give me reason to think otherwise.
Case in point, there's a trans man who started attending my kids church recently, but wanted nothing to do with the church except the youth group. He started hanging out with my 15 year old (mentally disabled) son and some other boys individually. He's 31. I put a stop to that immediately. The church has said he's not welcome there. He hates the church and me for being transphobic. I'm not, but rather I'm pedophelia-phobic. And I'll beat the hell out of anyone mistreating my son, transgender or not. The fact that this person was transgender wasn't a problem for me. The sketchy behavior was. The church on the other hand was more concerned with his lifestyle choices and the fact that he used to be a woman. There are freaks in every walk of life. Trans, normal, straight, gay, what have you. There are also great people in any place as well.
Post edited March 30, 2016 by paladin181
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dtgreene: And in doing so, you are incorrect; a person's gender does not have to match the person's assigned sex.
Why not? I've never been quite clear on how this was determined.

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dtgreene: Also, referring to some people as "normal" implies that the rest are "abnormal", which is a rather insulting term, so we use terms like able-bodied, neurotypical, straight, and, in this context, cisgender, in order to avoid stigmatizing the minority.
Why not simply remove the stigma of using the term abnormal? People with genius level intellect are abnormal.
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Martek: No no no no NO.

I was obviously using "normal person" is in "lay person" or "non-expert in the lingo".

If that wasn't obvious - well then you now have my clarification - right here in this post.

Your reaction is "typical" of how today's SJW's "react".

I'm not saying you're a "SJW" - because I don't know you - but your reaction is very typical of how "they" react.
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dtgreene: Then use the term "lay person".

Also, I should point out that the term "SJW" is not typically used by people who believe in social justice, so by using that term, it is evident that you do not believe that people should be treated equally and fairly.
Ah, the old "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
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dtgreene: And in doing so, you are incorrect; a person's gender does not have to match the person's assigned sex.
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Bookwyrm627: Why not? I've never been quite clear on how this was determined.

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dtgreene: Also, referring to some people as "normal" implies that the rest are "abnormal", which is a rather insulting term, so we use terms like able-bodied, neurotypical, straight, and, in this context, cisgender, in order to avoid stigmatizing the minority.
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Bookwyrm627: Why not simply remove the stigma of using the term abnormal? People with genius level intellect are abnormal.
Would you be willing to use the term "abnormal" to describe yourself? If not, you are not in a position to reclaim that word.
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As a gay male myself; I feel that this game portal SHOULD offer 'Gay Themed Games'. Steam has a few, several I have bought to show my support - although I don't play them much. My Point: the lack of 'Gay Games' on this portal is a bit obvious, and hopefully the management will correct the oversight soon. I would purchase any gay games offered here.
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Bookwyrm627: Why not? I've never been quite clear on how this was determined.

Why not simply remove the stigma of using the term abnormal? People with genius level intellect are abnormal.
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dtgreene: Would you be willing to use the term "abnormal" to describe yourself? If not, you are not in a position to reclaim that word.
Why yes, I would be willing to use it to describe myself. I don't use the term "abnormal" simply because it is not a term I use often; I'm more likely to just say "not normal". I do periodically claim that my thinking and methods seem to differ from most peoples. I am abnormal in a number of ways.

And your response doesn't even touch on the first question.
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Bookwyrm627: Why not? I've never been quite clear on how this was determined.

Why not simply remove the stigma of using the term abnormal? People with genius level intellect are abnormal.
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dtgreene: Would you be willing to use the term "abnormal" to describe yourself? If not, you are not in a position to reclaim that word.
The idea of "reclaiming" something is ridiculous. There is nothing to reclaim here, and now you're just attempting to obfuscate the duscussion with diversions. Abnormal is not a derogatory term by nature, and doesn't need "reclaiming," whatever the hell that actually means (I know what it means but not the implication of this particular or other words)and again, you are avoiding the discussion by being the thought/word police.
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dtgreene: I may post a rebuttal to more points later on.
Please do.

At this point you have not rebutted anything. You've spent all your "oratory" on telling us how to speak and what words we can and can't use; and who can use them, and none on any other points being made.

I, for one, would not mind if you also answered my direct question to you, "who's the cognoscenti that decided that we have to talk that way?"

You spend a lot of time on the topic of how we're allowed to speak - from where does that "authority" originate?
Post edited March 30, 2016 by Martek
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Martek: As far as bathroom use goes..

Many places already have "family" bathrooms, where any "gender" or "identity" can already go - including a "mix" of the preceding. One "typical" use of such a facility is for family members to jointly change diapers on a baby.

So to say that transgenders don't already have more than one choice is disingenuous by those pushing an agenda.

Tying which bathroom one can use to some system is the apparent issue.

Some feel that tying to "physical" (aka "cis") gender is appropriate. Others feel typing to "emotional/mental/mind" is appropriate.

Being in favor of the "cis" system DOES NOT make one bigoted, misogynist, racist or ANY of the other negative terms those with agendas to forward like to use to make accusations.

One can be perfectly fine with "cis" "trans" and/or "whatever" AND STILL prefer the bathroom system be tied to "cis" gender.

I haven't yet heard a cogent argument WHY a "trans" should be allowed to use a different restroom that they would be allowed to use if they went into their "cis"-designated one. Why should their "discomfort" outweigh the discomfort of those that prefer a "cis"-separation? NO COGENT ARGUMENT.

I've known and get along with and am fine with all sorts of people, for my whole life, including "cis" (way before they were called that) and "trans", etc. I favor the "cis" system. It's simple and more straightforward. If someone chooses to FALSELY call me some kind of bigot because of that - well, "mean words" don't phase me (I won't need emergency counseling from within a "safe space"). If you have a penis - use this restroom; if a vagina - use that one. Don't bother me with "edge" cases - because there will ALWAYS be edge cases no matter how you approach it.

Some system has to be in place. NO COGENT REASON why it should be based on "trans" and not "cis". Both systems will make "someone" offended/uncomfortable (because, let's face it - getting OFFENDED is the raison d'êtr for far too many these days). No good reason to choose against the time-honored "cis" way and PLENTY of reasons NOT to choose the "newfangled" way (such as the obvious - perverts will "fake" things to go where they should not - but also less obvious things, including philosophical things, like - how often can one "change" their preferred "identity" and then go use THAT bathroom? Once a lifetime? Once a week? Multiple times per hour? HOW OFTEN?) - NONE of which have to do with bigotry, etc.

It's fine that folks disagree with that - but this YOU MUST BE BLAH BLAH (intolerant, bigoted, racist, misogynist, exclusive, discriminatory - fill in the blank with your favorite false bash) for thinking that is just soo much BS. It doesn't mean ANY of that - it just means preference for one system over another.

There's ALREADY "gender-neutral" bathrooms all over the place ("family" restrooms) that both/either "cis" or "trans" folk can use if the "designated" one is not preferred - let's stop pretending that's not the case.
First of all, how do you tell whether a person has a penis or vagina without actually looking (and actually looking would be inappropriate)? The simple answer is, you can't.

What you refer to as the "cis" system (which is, as I pointed out, not the proper use of the word, and makes your post harder to understand) is actually not that simple. There are enough edge cases where it doesn't work. How do you handle somebody with facial hair and big breasts? How do you handle somebody with ovotestes? (An ovotestis is what happens when the organ doesn't fully develop into an overy or a testicle, but is instead something inbetween.) If you do genetic testing, what if some cells are XX and some are XY? What if the cells don't have exactly 2 chromosomes (i.e. if you have X0 or XXY)?

Also, the claim about perverts abusing such laws is false; a pervert would just ignore the laws in the first place. Furthermore, transgender people are not, in general, perverts. In fact a trans person is far more likely to be assaulted in the bathroom than a cisgender person.
No one said transgender people were perverts. No one even insinuated it. They're only less likely to be perverts because there's fewer of them. I'd guess the percentage is about the same.. Unless you want to clarify what you mean by pervert. Transgender by definition is perverted to many people. You may offend someone with the use of that term. Unless you're now reclaiming it?

See how silly that sounds?

I found one possible case of a degenerate transgender person, as I stated earlier (and I don't know if you're ignoring me or not) but that is a case of a possibly bad person, his gender and gender history is of no consequence.
Post edited March 30, 2016 by paladin181
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This was a mistake.