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tinyE: Remember when Arizona struck down a law making Martin Luther King Day a holiday? They almost lost their statehood and boy, weren't they quick to call an emergency meeting and reverse it.
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seaspanky: What a ridiculous false statement. At NO point was Arizona's "statehood" in question over the decisions by Arizona voters to approve or reject Propositions concerning a holiday honoring MLK Jr. At NO point was there any "emergency meeting" which reversed anything. In fact, Arizona voters approved a state MLK holiday in the November 1992 referendum, which made it the ONLY state to put it to a vote of the people and have it pass.

Perhaps you should stop typing now.
Okay, I may have exaggerated. XD Sorry. :P Fact is though, the NFL threatened to pull the Super Bowl when the law didn't pass in the state legislature and that's why it went to a vote of the people. If anything, it goes to prove my point about a small group of people (elected officials) being on the wrong side of history and hence misrepresenting the actual citizens. I seriously doubt any of these laws would have even been considered had any of them made a ballot.

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tinyE: The NBA is going to pull the All Star game out, the NFL will no doubt strike down any Pro Bowl/Super Bowl considerations, ditto for the NHL. They can also kiss anything new corporate keeping or taking up residence.

It looks bad now but these people are on the wrong side of history with no leg to stand on and if they don't get their shit together they are all going to seriously regret this.
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drmfro: Are you cool with Citizens United, then? If not, you have some cognitive dissonance to overcome.

And no, I'm not defending this law.

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Darvond: Sadly, our supreme court is currently hung no thanks to the same party that refuses to take an appointment to even have a hearing on a justice. Obstructionist twats.
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drmfro: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/us/politics/joe-biden-argued-for-delaying-supreme-court-picks-in-1992.html
And no, but the situation is a little different when we are talking about human rights. We aren't discussing china patterns here. We are 50 different states under one Constitution and when one of the 50 decides it doesn't want to abide by that Constitution and provide the Liberties guaranteed therein, then the rules change and anything goes, whether it be by corporate bullying as in this case, or even military, as in the 1960s when the National Guard was used to enforce integration.
Post edited March 26, 2016 by tinyE
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drmfro: Are you cool with Citizens United, then? If not, you have some cognitive dissonance to overcome.

And no, I'm not defending this law.
Rather amusing how that article completely downplays the significance of the bill (and its real effects on transgendered people) in pursuit of promoting its Libertarian point of view.


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tinyE: Remember when Arizona struck down a law making Martin Luther King Day a holiday? They almost lost their statehood and boy, weren't they quick to call an emergency meeting and reverse it.
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seaspanky: At NO point was Arizona's "statehood" in question over the decisions by Arizona voters to approve or reject Propositions concerning a holiday honoring MLK Jr. At NO point was there any "emergency meeting" which reversed anything.
Perhaps not, but there was a significant amount of opposition within the State of Arizona to get MLK Day recognized.

http://archive.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/20120112martin-luther-king-holiday-dilemma.html
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tinyE: The NBA is going to pull the All Star game out, the NFL will no doubt strike down any Pro Bowl/Super Bowl considerations, ditto for the NHL. They can also kiss anything new corporate keeping or taking up residence.

It looks bad now but these people are on the wrong side of history with no leg to stand on and if they don't get their shit together they are all going to seriously regret this.
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drmfro: Are you cool with Citizens United, then? If not, you have some cognitive dissonance to overcome.

And no, I'm not defending this law.
The irony of hoping that an organization as horrible as the the NCAA will act against this law is not lost on me, but I'm not sure I see what the Citizens United holding has to do with anything.
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ScotchMonkey: Hell in a handbasket.

A supreme court appeal maybe or however the law works down there?
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Darvond: Sadly, our supreme court is currently hung no thanks to the same party that refuses to take an appointment to even have a hearing on a justice. Obstructionist twats.
Well, they are but they aren't. The Supreme Court is still doing its thing, but with 8 justices. If they happen to disagree on something enough to the point that no majority opinion can be written, they can issue a plurality decision which provides no clear precedent for the future.
Post edited March 26, 2016 by Jonesy89
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rampancy: No, but they immediately think that transgender male = potential child molester and rapist.
And in doing so, they misgender all transgender women. If they were truly referring to transgender men, then the bill (and similar bills) would not make sense, as it would have the opposite effect, requiring those men to use the women's bathroom.
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ScotchMonkey: Hell in a handbasket.

A supreme court appeal maybe or however the law works down there?
The case would have to make it up through lower courts first. One of the earliest Supreme Court rulings (back in the 18th century, I believe) was that the Supreme Court could only handle appeals.
Post edited March 26, 2016 by dtgreene
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tinyE: And no, but the situation is a little different when we are talking about human rights. We aren't discussing china patterns here. We are 50 different states under one Constitution and when one of the 50 decides it doesn't want to abide by that Constitution and provide the Liberties guaranteed therein, then the rules change and anything goes, whether it be by corporate bullying as in this case, or even military, as in the 1960s when the National Guard was used to enforce integration.
Speaking of 'anything goes', apparently some of the trans community have been abiding by the law... while handing out cards like [url=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeehnO0W4AAgEuS.jpg:large]this[/url] to the people who are wondering why, say, there is a burly dude using the lady's.
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ScotchMonkey: Hell in a handbasket.

A supreme court appeal maybe or however the law works down there?
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dtgreene: The case would have to make it up through lower courts first. One of the earliest Supreme Court rulings (back in the 18th century, I believe) was that the Supreme Court could only handle appeals.
There is also that. Mind, I am hoping that we won't have to wait that long for this shit to get fixed.
Post edited March 26, 2016 by Jonesy89
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Jonesy89: Speaking of 'anything goes', apparently some of the trans community have been abiding by the law... while handing out cards like [url=https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeehnO0W4AAgEuS.jpg:large]this[/url] to the people who are wondering why, say, there is a burly dude using the lady's.
Out of curiosity, do you have the source for that image?
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Jonesy89: Speaking of 'anything goes', apparently some of the trans community have been abiding by the law... while handing out cards like here it is.
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tinyE: And no, but the situation is a little different when we are talking about human rights. We aren't discussing china patterns here. We are 50 different states under one Constitution and when one of the 50 decides it doesn't want to abide by that Constitution and provide the Liberties guaranteed therein, then the rules change and anything goes, whether it be by corporate bullying as in this case, or even military, as in the 1960s when the National Guard was used to enforce integration.
Do explain to me how the U.S. Constitution requires that States provide citizens with the ability to sue private employers for discrimination.

I'm curious since the Bill of Rights and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment restrain government, not private organizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_discrimination_law_in_the_United_States#Constitutional_basis

Federal anti-discrmination laws apply to businesses engaging in interstate commerce, but this North Carolina law does not challenge federal law. This is a State matter.

Again, not defending this law.

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rampancy: Rather amusing how that article completely downplays the significance of the bill (and its real effects on transgendered people) in pursuit of promoting its Libertarian point of view.
*sigh* Political ignorance at its worst. Libertarians were pushing for LGBT rights long before it was cool, long before Democrats started pandering to the demographic.

But no, you're right: They must be the bad guys for thinking that religious organizations shouldn't be forced to provide services.

Sarcasm aside, read this article at Reason from the same writer. I'll post a quote in case you're feeling lazy or pressed for time:

It's frustrating to attempt to look at this issue from a libertarian perspective because it doesn't really seem like either side in this particular culture war has any interest in separating government accommodation of individuals and the private sector. It ends up being all or nothing. Transgender and gay people should expect that the government accommodate their gender expression and sexual orientation and treat them the same under the law, particularly in areas like schools where attendance is mandatory. If you're going to force transgender teens to go to your institutions, and you're going to take money from their parents to fund it, you can very well deal with it. In the private sector, though, there's no reason why cultural negotiation won't work just fine to deal with the situation, particularly since in all likelihood, people aren't even going to know when they're sharing a bathroom with a transgender person anyway.
I am so done with arguing in this forum. All it does it get me into flame wars with people that in any other circumstance I'd probably be good friends with.
Post edited March 27, 2016 by tinyE
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tinyE: I am so done with arguing in this forum. All it does it get me into flame wars with people that in any other circumstance I'd probably be good friends with.
My intent was not to flame you. I apologize if my tone was too harsh.

And you're right: We'd probably get along just fine. I frequently talk politics with a coworker who is a staunch Democrat, but we respect each other despite our differences of opinion and also talk about our personal lives, families, etc.
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tinyE: I am so done with arguing in this forum. All it does it get me into flame wars with people that in any other circumstance I'd probably be good friends with.
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drmfro: My intent was not to flame you. I apologize if my tone was too harsh.

And you're right: We'd probably get along just fine. I frequently talk politics with a coworker who is a staunch Democrat, but we respect each other despite our differences of opinion and also talk about our personal lives, families, etc.
I didn't mean you flamed me, only that it usually turns into that.

I think I'm just spent and want away from politics for a while regardless of who I'm talking about it with. I hate election years. :P
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Small update: looks like the list of businesses that are in opposition to the law is getting lengthy.

Also, remember how the law revoked a fuckload of ant-discrimination ordinances? Yeah, turns out that some of our cities and counties had laws in place to prevent discrimination based on veteran status; after this law, those protections are now gone. Head, meet desk.
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Here is one article about a rally in Raleigh on Thursday.
https://medium.com/@alittlelilypad/in-raleigh-tired-but-determined-a3a9693a5599#.cydiltwts
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dtgreene: Here is one article about a rally in Raleigh on Thursday.
https://medium.com/@alittlelilypad/in-raleigh-tired-but-determined-a3a9693a5599#.cydiltwts
That reminds me, I have one nit to pick with the news coverage of the situation: there were also a fair number of Democrats who supported this shit; I get that the speaker didn't want to focus on that in a rally, but saying 'we walked out' to imply the entire party walked out is a bit disingenuous.
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dtgreene: Tale a look at the guy in the picture here:
http://www.upworthy.com/heres-what-itll-look-like-if-trans-people-arent-allowed-to-use-the-right-bathroom

Or the guy picktured here:
https://twitter.com/_michaelhughes1/status/713102950877388800

Because of this new law, these two guys, if on state-owned property, are required to use the woman's rooms if they have to go.

(For anyone who can't see either picture, these people are clearly men, complete with obvious facial hair.)
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Jonesy89: I do hope that this shit gets chucked out, but I am not holding my breath for a speedy resolution. In the meantime, caution is warranted. I'm not affected by the bathroom bollocks, but some people close to me are. I know that people's reaction to trans people has been bad before, but in a state that just passed a law legitimizing that kind of prejudice, date night with one person in particular has gotten a whole hell of a lot scarier. Hoping that things don't get bad enough here that I need to start carrying; those fucking things give me the willies.
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dtgreene: I tend not to travel, but if I did, this sort of law is bad enough to make me not want to even travel through North Carolina.

Thanks for posting this topic, by the way!
The correct solution here is for people to stop caring about which restroom people use. But unless you've got a penis and want to make use of a urinal, there's not really any particular reason why you need to be using the men's room.

Well, other than avoiding those batshit insane women that will mace any guy they deem to be dangerous without any consideration being paid to whether or not he is dangerous.