It certainly did seem you were making the case that Pooka and Trent were Liberal earlier today. Either you were defending teammates or you genuinely believed Trent was a Liberal who had scumread ZFR and Pooka was only joking about being fascist. You passed off several posts from Pooka as being 'sarcasm' until he came out and clearly stated he was Fascist. That's another one for 'Is Joe Fascist' column. Although in your defense you certainly had ZFR down as a sure fire fascist despite me trying to reason with you otherwise.

So why am I considering SPF? I analysed his play in a prior post today so just scroll up to that post. However that alone doesn't make me pick SPF over Lift, but this therom may do:

Lift is in a conflict with Joe but still looking the 'Liberal One' between them. HOWEVER Trent did not implicate Lift and ZFR, which he could have done. Note SupplementScene told Trent 'if you get a Liberal card and Lift passes a Fascist Policy kill ZFR or Lift.' Trent could have said "I got a Liberal Policy that proved ZFR lied about the card draw and Lift discarded the Liberal card I passed so I had to kill one of them". If Lift is Liberal it rules him out of government.

So that is the better move for Fascist team unless Lift is Fascist. If Lift is Fascist it would make sense for Trent to not implicate him. Could Trent be setting up Lift to win the game? Stupid Scene will agree to go with fascist Lift and get shafted and lose the game.

However when we played Mafia Team, as you will remember, it would of been a better move for Trent not to be the first to jump on my lynch on Day 1 and highlight my mistake. So it could be an error by Trent or it could be Trent is Lift's Scumbuddy.

On the other hand Lift looks way more liberal than Joe right now, who well doesn't. Then again I meta-read Lift as Scum a few times. On a re-read I'm not entirely happy how Lift claimed your call. He was happy for both of you to be excluded from government. If I was Liberal I wouldn't make that call but perhaps he could be Liberal and say that. The main thing I don't like about Lift is he buddies me at times to buy my favour. I know when he played as Town/Liberal he was usually more critical of me. But then again in other ways his play seems very liberal so I could be seeing something that isn't there.

So it's a tough decision for me to make. You can see why I'm weighing up SPF versus Lift. If I pick the wrong horse I potentially lose Liberals the game which happened in my first Mafia game, the one you ran. Someone told me after that, that I should watch the game but not participate in future, which was a downer.

That is very possible. But I'll tell you why I consider a SPF-Scene government: the Veto power. The use of the Veto power counts as a failed government. That means, if we skip to me+Scene (or me+ZFR, in the hypothetical case that ZFR were still alive, which we discuss here) and I draw FFF, then we have to use the Veto power. Which would then lead to an immediate random policy. With a then 40% chance of getting L. (since FFF were removed)
However, assuming that both SPF and Scene are liberal, if they draw FFF and use the Veto power, we still can go to the me+anyone (Scene or SPF, really) government. And I will then have a very good chance of drawing L. In other words: if we assume that SPF and Scene are Liberal, our chances of winning this are much bigger if we use two governments than if we rely on only my government + a random policy.

And seeing that we have 3 Fascists outed and possibly one dead and also taking into account that you argue against the SPF+Scene government, I guess that the chances that both SPF and Scene are Liberal (or that you at least read them as Liberal too, if you are Hitler) are quite good.

I guess we will see after the votes are tallied. If this government fails, we'll just try again with me as president. I hope that any Liberal agrees that any government involving Pooka (who would be the next President) should be voted down!

Speaking of votes: @Joe, SPF and Scene: did you vote and zeo missed it? Or is there any reason not to vote yet?

Btw. I like the fact that you use 'no vibes' now as Avatar. Funny. :-D

I haven't voted yet no because I'm yet to make a decision on who I consider the best bet to be.

Did you read my Trent theory?

Sure. It would theoretically possible that Trent, in some convoluted way, wanted to set me up as a future president. But he didn't. In fact, he ensured that I am term-locked by picking me as a Chancellor. So in one move he made sure that none of the Liberal team ZFR+Lifthrasil could participate in the next government. Quite a smart move, I think.

So, think it through. Do you really believe I am Fascist, supported by trent and that I'm now setting you up with an additional buddy SPF? That would mean two things: Joe would have to be liberal (since there are at most 4 Fascist aligned players) and do you really think that is likely with how he acted? Remember his "it's a slip" attempt! Secondly it would mean that there are 4 Fascists (trent, Pooka, SPF and me) and that you have lost anyhow. Additionally if you really believe that I and SPF are Fascist, then the next governments will contain a Fascist too. Pooka is beyond doubt Fascist and the government after that will be headed by me. And then there will be no other government, because if that one gets voted down, a random policy will be enacted, which will be Fascist with a 75% chance.

So, either you trust that I am Liberal and we try it either with the SPF government or with the me+you government or with both. Or you bet on the bad odds for the random policy - but I would be very much against that, since those are bad odds for the Liberals.

And if you believe that I am Liberal, that would make Joe automatically Fascist. After all I was told be Zeo that he is after my investigation. That means we have three Fascists outed and there can at most be one hidden. Sure, it is possible that SPF is the hidden Fascist and that I am dooming us with proposing to support him as President. But I don't think so. I think it is more likely that the last Fascist was either blotunga or is one out of flubb or rtcvb. But if you prefer to skip directly to me+you, that's fine with me as well. Just keep in mind, if SPF is Liberal, our chances of winning this are much bigger if we try to get this government into office so that you are able to use the veto power.

ugh. don't listen to whoever that was.

Yeah, at the beginning of the day it is as you said - I'd been assuming ZFR was F because Lifthrasil was telling Trent to execute me or Pooka - and Pooka was more responsive to my arguments - although neither Pooka nor ZFR actually considered giving me support so I was in two minds about it. But yes, when I saw Trent killing ZFR my first thought, after I'd gotten over the shock, was "someone trusts me!" then "he must think ZFR was H, I don't think it's likely but there's a chance." It was stupid of me not to think Trent was F - but I don't see why he would do what he did.

If Lifthrasil is F (which is the case) why is Trent doing what he's done? He could have executed me and continued ZFR's plan to end the game. It's a counter-argument to you "Why isn't Trent implicating Lift," argument, and I'm saying it because it's something I don't understand. There are two things I can think of - Trent is H and had no idea who to execute, but then why didn't he make an attempt to justify his decision? - or Trent just wanted to make a scene for the lulz. Which seems out of character.



I haven't decided yet whether I'm arguing against it or not. I've told SirP that he was too hasty with his decision, and didn't take into account all the possibilities. I asked SirP and supplementscene why they think they can trust each other. On one hand, it does look like there's a chance they're both liberal. On the other it looks like there's no hope at all.

Yes we do all agree that.

I haven't voted yet. I don't have much hope for winning, but I'd at least like to work out what I should do if I want to win. I hope no-one minds a little delay.



How should I vote?:

If SirP and supplementscene are Liberal, I should vote yes: Then either there are 4 Fs who vote no and we go to pooka and lifthrasil's presidencies with 4 votes v four votes to turn over the top card. Or blotunga was F or H doesn't know whose team to vote with and we get majority vote. Then we either get an L and win, or veto to supplementscene's government and the game is not lost.

If either SirP or supplement scene are F and I vote yes, then it probably won't make a difference, as their two votes, plus rtcvb's Pooka's and Lifthrasil's makes five. It won't make a difference but I'll feel stupid. If one of them if F I'll need to convince some of the Ls and/or H that they have to vote with me.

It's just recently occurred to me how much of a task H-not-knowing-their-allies is for the team F.

Action for Joe - work out SirP & Supplementscene's alignments.

I wasn't about to waste the 2 minutes I spent in Paint on a throwaway joke!

No, I'm going to milk it for a bit.

Or Trent couldn't shoot either of the two proposed targets because they both were their scumbuddies! Therefore he decided to shoot someone else and since that was a dead giveaway that he is Fascist, he decided to do so in a spectacular fashion while dropping all pretense. If you all think about it (not you, Joe, you already know it's true), then you will find that this is the only reasonable explanation for Trent's behaviour. If anyone out of Pooka or Joe would be Liberal, he would be dead by now because Fascist trent would have gotten away with that kill while still looking Liberal.

Easy. If you know that SPF and Scene are Liberal, you should vote NO, if you still want a chance to win this. If you know that either of them are Fascist - you would have already voted Yes. But if, as I assume, you are Hitler and you don't know whether the combination SPF+Scene contains a Fascist, then you should just ask your buddies trent and Pooka how you should vote. ... Is that why you are waiting? Are you waiting for hints from them?

Yay! Something we can agree on! :-)

They're bad odds, but better then the 0 odds if you trust Lifthrasil's presidency.

But yeah, everything Lifthrasil said is pretty much true. I just want to make the argument that my "it's a slip" attempt was stupid, but mistakes are not restricted to the F alignment. Whichever team I'm on I was desperate and thought I saw something which wasn't there. (and pinned a lot of hope to it too)


it is the only reasonable explanation. How can that be?


You know what's dead annoying? If ZFR had thought about the Joe-can't-be-H-because-he-asked-Lifthrasil-to-investigate-him-and-then-argued-with-ZFR-that-that-was-a-good-id ea argument at the same time that he was proposing to make you chancellor to test you (or I had thought of it, though I think it would have had less weight coming from me) then he might have elected me and then I would have been able to prove myself but also be actually on the liberal team and we wouldn't be in this mess.

Until I made Trent my chancellor and lost the game... hm...

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/secret_hitler_2_everybody_is_a_star/post935

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/secret_hitler_2_everybody_is_a_star/post952

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/secret_hitler_2_everybody_is_a_star/post983

I was hoping I'd look over ZFR choosing Lifthrasil as chancellor and get the self-proclaimed Fs saying "Lift should be chancellor, I don't see how that would implicate Joe and if it does there's no problem there because he's not on my team"

But actually I just found Trent saying that he thought it was a bad idea to chancellate lifthrasil and pooka saying he doesn't really care.

Am I actually on team F and no-one told me?


I'll vote when I get the chance. I haven't the energy to work out who's what in SirP and Supplementscene. I don't know how I can convince whoever I'd need to convince if I did somehow find some indication of what they are. Sorry team.

But not too sorry. Yous all suck. ;p

(but it's been fun too)

Alright, time for me to announce this since I am going to a theme park for all day long tomorrow, and therefore, won't have much time or room to look at the game.

If I get my turn as President, my Chancellor shall be JoeSapphire. Of course, as I'm a fascist, my choice of chancellor doesn't matter and all will vote no for my government (even I will vote no). I will also inform zeogold of this.

I'd rather return to Lift's meaningful presidency rather than hold up the entire game on a pointless government.

Why? What is the point in voting against your own government, if it comes to that? I mean, yes, all Liberals will vote against you and even if all your buddies vote for you ... ah, I see. You just told your buddies to all vote against you too so that a possibly still hidden buddy doesn't reveal himself.

So, are we at 4-4? And that's why you are certain that you'll get to be Presidential candidate, because you and your buddies will block this government? Or do you want us to think that we are at 4-4?

And did you plan to make Joe look more Liberal in some kind of WIFOM way by making him look bad in an intentionally bad way? ... Whatever. Since you revealed yourself, your play is really strange. Almost as if you aren't even trying anymore. Which means, either you have given up or you are too sure that you are going to win this via RNG.

75% F on RNG, yeah they just have to waste time.

Regardless the game WILL be decided within 2 governments.

Either:
2 liberals and an L gets through,
2 Liberals and a Veto,
A fascist either president/chancellor (and a F is passed), or RNG and most likely F.

Odds of 2 L's and forcibly allowing 1 to get through (or forcing 2 L's through), very very small. 1/28 (3.5%)

That's just how i see it.

Correction. 3/28 (10.7%).