Well it's a read. So it could be wrong. Don't just trust it.

I don't know if I can't find a good case against ZFR, but it's a good idea to consider it. I'll start a table that people can contribute to and discuss:

Is ZFR Liberal?

- Passed 3 Liberal policies in 4 governments. The 1st, 3rd and 4th.

- Engaged and active.Not afraid to take the lead.

- Didn't execute Joe.

- Created unnessecary conflict in aftermath of 8th government.

- Didn't elect Hitler twice.

Is ZFR Fascist?

- Passed a Fascist policy when the table was at 4L.

- Conflict with PookaMustard: ZFR claims he passed L, Pooka claims it's a lie.

- Has general support.

- Has little doubt. Generally unwilling to reconsider his stance.

- At the centre of two conflicts: ZFR's second presidency confirmed Lifthrasil's alignment in the public eye, and ZFR's third presidency confirmed PookaMustard's.




If he passed the 3rd Facist policy
- The fascists would be in a better position on the table, but a weaker position going forward.
- ZFR would have a strong reason, and opportunity to execute Lifthrasil.

If he passed the 4th Liberal policy
- The liberals would be in a better position on the table, but a weaker position going forward.
- He gets to spend the rest of the game teasing Joe


The 4th point alone should be enough reason for anybody.

Good work there supplementscene.

This is not true. I reconsider my stance a lot.

On the other hand, sometimes I don't.

False. It's based on a conflict. So if ZFR is Liberal, there is no way his assessment of Pooka's alignment could be wrong. A liberal wouldn't lie about the cards he passed, just as a liberal wouldn't lie about the cards he got. So if ZFR is liberal, Pooka is fascist. And vice versa. There is a slight chance that both might by fascist - but I don't see any reason to assume that. And there is no chance that both are liberal.

Also in your list you placed one point in the wrong category. Here's a fixed list, the fixed point is bolded. I added a point and some questions and removed the invalid point. If ZFR didn't reconsider his opinion, he would still see you as more likely Liberal than me. Remember?

So,

Is ZFR Liberal?

- Passed 3 Liberal policies in 4 governments. The 1st, 3rd and 4th.

- Engaged and active.Not afraid to take the lead.

- Created unnessecary conflict in aftermath of 8th government. (What do you mean by that?)

- Didn't elect Hitler twice. Was that just an admission, that he elected Hitler once?



Is ZFR Fascist?

- Passed a Fascist policy when the table was at 4L.

- Didn't execute Joe. (for personal reasons)

- Conflict with PookaMustard: ZFR claims he passed L, Pooka claims it's a lie.

- Has general support.

- At the centre of two conflicts: ZFR's second presidency confirmed Lifthrasil's alignment in the public eye, and ZFR's third presidency confirmed PookaMustard's. (Why would that make ZFR Fascist?)

- nominated Joe as Chancellor in the very first round (explained by random.org usage)

And i admitted i handed him 2 F's and he had no choice (as i had no choice). Sooo....?

Remaining firm in your decision (even if it's wrong) is better than jumping at every little thing.

This has come to mind, i have wondered if ZFR is really fascist instead; But my own experience and seeing the plays says no, so i choose to trust him until that changes. (though this late in the game it's win or lose)

Though the fact Joe suddenly went wall-of-text-defense for Pooka suggests they are both fascist. That's where i stand with it all.

Theoretically yes, but only before 3F's on the board... ie his first government. But who knows?

Wait... does.. that mean Joe's Hitler? (Just speculating, doubtful from the walls-of-text)

You and JoeSapphire should Vote.

I already voted. Just tell us what you think of the above.

I don't trust anyone.

Nothing seems to have really changed. I’ll check back later today, until then I have some paint I must go watch dry.

lolololol


A lot of the wall-of-text was on the assumption that Pooka is F. Is that a little thing worth jumping at, or are you going to remain firm in your decision (even if it's wrong)?



Can you expand these examples? Why is one better than the other?

What do you mean by 'better'? Indicative of L alignment? Or easier to follow, more convincing, et cetera?


That's true. If trent trusts ZFR then he should be confident shooting Pooka.

I'm putting my point back in the "Is he L?" list - here's why:
ZFR not executing Joe can be used to argue that ZFR and Joe are F, but that makes no sense with what's gone before. So it can either be suggestion that ZFR's liberal, or it should be removed from the list entirely.

I'm not satisfied by ZFR reconsidering an opinion in response to the results of an experiment of his own design. I think it should go back in.

unnecessary conflict with Pooka - claiming to have passed an L when, if it were a lie he might have claimed no such thing.

something just occurred to me

If he invented the second L in ZFthrasil government he would HAVE to invent another L now, because if trent turns over LLF ZFR's a proven liar.

Why would he have claimed LLF when he had LFF? To cover for rtcvb's FFF, which he has reason to assume is LFF.

So the hypothetical runs as follows:

rtcvb (F) draws LFF or FFF, passes ZFR (F) FF. ZFR assumes LFF was drawn.

ZFR (F) draws LFF, passes Lifthrasil (F) LF, tells everyone he drew LLF.

ZFR (F) draws FFF, passes Pooka (L) FF. Knows that if rtcvb DIDN'T draw L there is LLF left in the pack.

^ Yup. Doesn't make sense at all. No sarcasm, I was just wrong. You can't invent more Ls to cover for previous L invented. That just makes the situation worse.

:p Twice didn't elect H after 3Fs were passed.

I think an F is in a better position to manufacture conflicts and confirmations than an L is. It does seem that ZFR (L) has had reason to make the decisions he made, which brought him the results he has, but ZFR (F) could have deliberately set out those decisions with the aim of creating the results he did.

Does it make sense?

^ This one should go too I guess, as Joe-and-ZFR-can't-be-both-F is one thing everybody should be certain of.

Okay. I'm going to vote now. This basically gives Trent the power to end the game. It's very scary,


Here's my advice to Trent:

Decide who you think is F out of Lifthrasil or me, and kill that one. Whatever you do, you're pretty much sealing the fate of the game, but this is the most polarised conflict: One of us is L, the other is F. Lifthrasil says shoot me, elect him and he'll pass the final L. I say shoot him, elect someone who's Liberal and they can pass the final L.

So you've made it clear that you're trusting Lifthrasil over me so I know that I've not got much hope,

I also know that you would probably feel like you'd be going against the will of the rest of your team if you did reconsider.



I just one to make one last argument for my cause.

Let's imagine you have a group of nine people set into two teams. One of the teams has 3-4 members, and the members all know each other, and don't want to be identified. The other has 5-6 members, who don't know who's on which team. You have been told that two of the people, A and B are on opposite teams, and you need to identify who's on the smaller team. A and 6 six other people say that B is on the smaller team, B alone says that A is on the smaller team. Who do you pick?

Because that's pretty much the situation you've got.

FFS Joe. you seriously hadn't voted already? That's what the hold up was? I'd been logging in for the past 3 days looking for election results and assuming Zeo was busy or unwell but it's just you. You really are draining every last drop of fun out of this game at this stage.

And it doesn't look at all Liberal because if you are Liberal you have to vote no to a Fascist Lift, that's a day 1 vote. The only reason you haven't voted is because you're trying to influence other posters with walls of text.

Personally I'd given up reading your wall of texts after last replying to you. You're not going to influence us any further by trying to dominate the discussion.

It just solidifies my opinion that you're Scum and desperately stringing it out because they'll eventually buy your narrative

Whether I'm scum or liberal, I know that Lifthrasil's on the other team, and everybody's trusting him, and that's going to lose us the game. Desperately stringing it out because eventually they'll buy my narrative should not be alignment indicative.

No?

Well, that was helpful I suppose. Hard to get a read on you when you don't have anyone in mind and being awfully quiet.

So it occurred to me, ZFR and Lift's grand plan is ZFR chancellorship under Lift presidency. So think about it, do you trust him as chancellor? You can believe his claims that I am F if you'd like and that he's a good guy - but then again, a great Hitler player does his best to be a good guy in the eyes of everyone. Do you really trust him so much that you'd hand him a nice and cozy chancellor seat at this stage of the game, no questions asked?

Assume he is H. Think again of what he has done. At this point, he knows passing an L means that he and friends automatically lose. Judging by how he seems to go along with Lift that well at this stage, I think it's safe to say he knows who his buddies are, and by extension, who aren't. Of the list of liberals to get rid of, he saw a gold mine in me.

He picked me as "least Hitlery" after being certain of my alignment because:
- I confirmed blotunga, a liberal
- I am an inexperienced player, so I don't know how to come back at anyone accusing me of being scum

Then the circus happened, which pretty much worked well for him so far: he got two liberals tainted in one fell swoop, and general opinion still has him in high regard, which may end with him taking the chancellorship seat.

"But Pooka, if he's Hitler, he could just claim he got FFF instead of accusing you and entering into a conflict!" I can hear some say. He can do that, but then all he would get for an execution option without raising any eyebrows is Joe. That leaves the next fascist-passing government to shoot...who, exactly? Who to shoot without losing any Liberal cred/being tainted in the process? Where to steer the kill where it most hurts the liberals?

That's why he risked creating conflict with me. He now has a repertoire of three people to shoot from, one was already removed with no pitchforks raised, the other two are on the chopping block. He couldn't get to this scenario by claiming he drew FFF. If he did, Joe would've been killed, but when it came time for the second execution, we could end up demanding to shoot a genuine fascist instead.

This is pretty much my argument on why he would create conflict with me. Feel free to add to it, modify it, question it, etc, it would be better if you do, even if you're firm in believing I am fascist.

Doesn't that sound like liberal play? Liberals take the game slowly to analyze it, fascists rush it. His analysis and the fact he took so long to vote sounds liberal to me.

THAT SAID, the fact he voted for a government with someone he believes to be fascist...that sounds like fascist play right there. Why, Joe?