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General discussionSecret Hitler #1: Legend of the Cows(1420 posts)(1420 posts)
(1420 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 23, 2018
Because this should have been top of my post for the TLDR Liberal crowd:

OK THIS IS HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. RWarehall's Presidential preferences are all of the Yes voters for ZFR. No way is this a coincidence.

The Fascists/Hitler are: ZFR, RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga

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RWarehall: This is the problem I see. When I look at the situations we have had and who has voted for what and why, your allegations just don't fit the actions I'd expect of a fascist.
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adaliabooks: This is my problem with the ZFR as fascist argument. I can see it as a newbie fascist unsure what to do when suddenly trust into government, but if that's the case then it was a serious fumble. And I don't think ZFR fumbles. He pretty much singlehandedly bagged town a win in his first (and only) Mafia game due to an absolutely steller mason play. A role which is just as difficult as scum for a newbie.
So I don't buy that ZFR would make such a simple mistake as a fascist, and everything since has just been piling on, bad having been on the receiving end of that more than once I know how frustrating it can be.
And like clockwork, Adelia comes to agree with RWarehall and back ZFR. ZFR is too smart to make such a stupid mistake apparently.

I presume both have read the above accusation and not known how to respond to it yet. Maybe they think ignoring it may make Liberals overlook it but we've got you now.

The fact you're still backing the lost cause that is ZFR probably means ZFR is Hitler and not just a regular fascist, with the regular fascists being RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga
Posted April 23, 2018
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supplementscene: The fact you're still backing the lost cause that is ZFR probably means ZFR is Hitler and not just a regular fascist, with the regular fascists being RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga
Seriously, you're seeing things that aren't there. Whether it's on purpose or not remains to be seen.

I back ZFR because I don't see anything particularly scummy in what he did. It's easy for scum (or fascists in this case) to leap on something that isn't there and twist things to make a liberal look bad.

If you really believe ZFR is fascist then answer RWarehall's question; why would he pass up the chance to be in government and pass a fascist policy and instead allow an already tested chancellor to further confirm their liberalness?
And if he is Hitler as you suspect then why would he do anything other than his best to appear liberal, as that is Hitler's job in this game?
If he was Hitler all he needed to do was pass a liberal policy and he'd be a show in for chancellor again. The play doesn't make any sense.
Posted April 23, 2018
I am starting to agree with Scene for another reason. Afyer the 3-0,the fascists would not risk another liberal government so they would all vote the same. If we take out me, lift and scene who has a very big chance of being a liberal the rest of the votes for the zfr government were 4-3. Soooo....
Posted April 23, 2018
I'm so tempted to punt this one to the fascists. When their government passes a fascist policy we can blackball both of them...

What's funny is that both Scene and Dedo voted "Yes" on the initial Kusu/ZFR government. (Just checked)

The downside is we won't really know how many L's are left...

The plus side is with a 64.3% chance to choose a liberal policy, they better be coming through. And that number should be reliable given that it is coming from Greek, Scene, and Lift's card reports...
Posted April 23, 2018
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greeklover: I am starting to agree with Scene for another reason. Afyer the 3-0,the fascists would not risk another liberal government so they would all vote the same. If we take out me, lift and scene who has a very big chance of being a liberal the rest of the votes for the zfr government were 4-3. Soooo....
Indeed and RWarehall's words perfectly mirror the 4 who voted for ZFR:

My preference for the last 3 before Greek is:
Blotunga - not much to go on, but more than Adalia
Adalia - I don't trust Brasas, middle by default

All while all of them discredited DedoPorno and note it is only their group discrediting him. Blotunga has already stated he's voting against Dedoporno. They'd be far less obvious if like me some of them couldn't read the game board.

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supplementscene: The fact you're still backing the lost cause that is ZFR probably means ZFR is Hitler and not just a regular fascist, with the regular fascists being RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga
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adaliabooks: Seriously, you're seeing things that aren't there. Whether it's on purpose or not remains to be seen.

I back ZFR because I don't see anything particularly scummy in what he did. It's easy for scum (or fascists in this case) to leap on something that isn't there and twist things to make a liberal look bad.

If you really believe ZFR is fascist then answer RWarehall's question; why would he pass up the chance to be in government and pass a fascist policy and instead allow an already tested chancellor to further confirm their liberalness?
And if he is Hitler as you suspect then why would he do anything other than his best to appear liberal, as that is Hitler's job in this game?
If he was Hitler all he needed to do was pass a liberal policy and he'd be a show in for chancellor again. The play doesn't make any sense.
Why would he as a Liberal pass up the chance to pass liberal policy? He doesn't want to appear fascist and doesn't want to pass liberal policy either. Maybe he wanted to see who would come to defend his decision

He's dropped the ball whether he's fascist, liberal or hitler.

Odds on Hitler and you're definitely fascist too. I bet you all feel let down by ZFR right now, he's done your team up like a kipper.

There's simply no reason for you to defend ZFR so strongly unless you are fascist, you're really making this way too obvious.
Posted April 23, 2018
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RWarehall: I'm so tempted to punt this one to the fascists. When their government passes a fascist policy we can blackball both of them...

What's funny is that both Scene and Dedo voted "Yes" on the initial Kusu/ZFR government. (Just checked)

The downside is we won't really know how many L's are left...

The plus side is with a 64.3% chance to choose a liberal policy, they better be coming through. And that number should be reliable given that it is coming from Greek, Scene, and Lift's card reports...
So 58 minutes after the accusation this is the best you can come up with? Scene and Dedo voted yes on the unknown Kuso/ZFR government? Where as ZFR, RWarehall, Adalia and Blotunga have constantly circle jerked each other while attacking others. Never a bad word said between the 4.

It seems you fascists are hoping for the 36% chance of 3 Facist cards are pulled to give them some credibility or argument in their defense.

But we know now to keep ZFR, RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga away from government

Obviously we know one of you 4 will be investigated if 3 fascist cards are pulled but do we even need that to know at this stage with all the tells you've given us?
Posted April 23, 2018
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supplementscene: snip
No, when you fail, you need to be shut out, which should be easy as we can jump from Greek to Lift and skip your presidency. You really think people should believe your fascist president and his investigation results? I believe it is you who have made it rather obvious. Your logic is bad. Your arguments make no sense. ZFR's actions do not match the scenario you propose. It doesn't make sense with ZFR as a fascist and it certainly doesn't make sense with ZFR as Hitler. Do you really think I'd be voting "No" to his government on turn 2 with a liberal president and him as Hitler when that would be a perfect opportunity to "confirm" him? The same as a fascist ZFR being afraid of being "setup" by a liberal Kusu...it doesn't make sense.

Quite frankly, you were the one who let YOUR team down. Your better play would have been to sit back a little longer, let the natural course flow through with ZFR and Dedo's governments getting voted down, and then try to discredit me when you torpedo it or get lucky with bad cards which as a liberal I'd be obligated to defend you.

I've been consistent all game. I support the most established players which you will not be after your government fails to pass a liberal policy.
Posted April 23, 2018
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Lifthrasil: What's your opinion on the whole ZFR/Brasas/RW discussion?
I already shared my feelings on ZFR. RW is worrying me mostly because of the ongoing support of ZFR although maybe I'm the one at fault or he's afraid the potential backlash if he suddenly decides to change his mind after going so far (this can be applicable for either alignment). Brasas is still a puzzle I'm trying to solve. There are moments where I like a lot what he says, the way he says it and how it ties in with his actions, but I can't at any point shake off the fear of being played like a violin. I see ZFR as the most likely fascist in that group followed potentially by RW. If Brasas happens to be fascist then I'd say he's more likely to be Hitler than a vanilla one (unless ZFR is actually liberal in which case my reads are shit).
Posted April 23, 2018
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ZFR: If whether I write something or not is useless anyway then I choose to do the thing that doesn't waste my time.
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dedoporno: Oh, wait. You also don't like wasting time. Huh...
I didn't think anyone in their right mind would take that for anything but me venting off at Brasas. It's 30 seconds to get 3 numbers off random.org but close to an hour to do an analysis and post it. But hey, I can understand how you might think checking random.org and doing an analysis take the same amount of "time wasting". Maybe, once you do more of the latter you'll see the difference.

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Brasas: 391 you kind of weasel out of it... I don't make much of it though
Regarding this, here, from my previous and first game:
https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/Ycg3gFESVTFE
"I don't like to make lists rating players according to their scumminess. Everyone (a, b, c) may or may not be scum (at this stage the exception is trent), depending on what condtions (x, y, z) are met. Though the conditions are more complex of course.
Instead of making a list of who's scum I'd rather analyze the links and conditions and see if I can figure something from that. Because if for example there are 4 players, out of which 2 are scum, and x+y make a and b scum, while x+z make c and d scum, then whom should I put on my list? a+b or c+d?"

This was me as a townie mason in private mason chat to another townie mason. Just in case you assume I was "weaseling out" then too.

And I stand by that and repeating it in 391. I don't do "x is 90% scum" reads. Instead I post If... Then... analysises and see what can be learned by them. And I posted a lot of those and shared with everyobody.

But at least be consistent. You told RW I'm scummy because I provided lots of information. Now you say I'm scummy because I weaseled out of providing information.

Regarding the rest:
Seriously? You're using a know forum glitch against me? And me cracking jokes??? I don't even understand half of the rest. Baits? What the heck is Mystic River (I had to google it, but I still don't know the reference)?

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supplementscene: So if you are upset ZFR maybe you have yourself to blame and if you are genuinely liberal than you have let the side down because many are suspicious that you are not because of your actions.
Or how about, and here is a crazy idea, you actually provide an acutal example of one of those "actions that made many suspicious of me". Brasas at least provided a list. But you so far have conveniently ignored me asking you about it, what, 5 times now?

EDIT: Wow. And now I see you first make accusations against me out of thin air, refuse to support them with actual posts, and now claim RW and adalia are my scum buddies because of they think same as me. You couldn't make this up.
Posted April 23, 2018
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supplementscene: Interesting analysis of the game. Combined with RW voting for ZFR as President and alongside ZFR voted against him being Chancellor.

Plus RWarehall quotes:

1. I tend to trust ZFR, some others seemingly don't.

2. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with an extra government before Greek's if that meant both ZFR and mine pass. I don't think the extra step would really hurt us

3. I look at ZFR and while there is a healthy dose of what could be either devil's advocate liberalism or subtle fascist passing of shade, I notice that a few times he has brought up very important points such as his explanation of why a fascist would be passing 2L to a liberal instead of 1L1F.

4. Let's be clear, I'm supportive because ZFR has said all the right things so far

5. One thing I was hoping to take out of this election is ZFR's alignment based on who might try to derail it (or whether than turned out to be nobody in which case he'd be almost definitely fascist given our lead). When I saw Kusu fight it, my first thought is that's one fascist trying to derail a liberal win.

6. It's posts like this that make me believe you are not what you claim. If you were a liberal, you'd realize how impossible it is to spot Hitler (because I've been trying to think up creative ways to do so). You'd also have a greater appreciation of how difficult it is to spot a fascist and how much guesswork is involved. There usually is no "probably" about it, just hair-pulling and doubt. That said, I now do have you in the "probably fascist" camp, but it took this slip of yours to do it.

7. My preference for the last 3 before Greek is:
Blotunga - not much to go on, but more than Adalia
Adalia - I don't trust Brasas, middle by default

Analysis

1. Backing ZFR

2. Lobbing for both his and ZFRs governments

3. The fact ZFR criticised the passing of is a good thing. I still maintain this is the best way of liberal cause. Neither RW or ZFR agree.

4. This is clearly wrong and a lie. ZFR even if Liberal definitely hasn't said 'all the right things'. I questioned in 362 about this asking if RWarehall is fascist.

5. Now this is an odd post. Why is Kusu being accused of being fascist from very little evidence? Have I missed something or is this a huge defensive deflection.

6. A further accusation that Kusu is Facist.

7. OK THIS IS HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE. RWarehall's Presidential preferences are all of the Yes voters for ZFR. No way is this a coincidence.

The Fascists/Hitler are: ZFR, RWarehall, Adalia, Blotunga

What's more Blotunga is calling Kosu fascist and doesn't want Brasas as President, oh it'll have to be 2 of those other guys.....

Blotunga is voting against Dedoporno

RW was suspicious of Dedoporno based on what was a fairly factual reply.

Adalia has attacked me very early on.

We've won Liberals we now know who the Scum are......

VOTE FOR CAPTAIN PORNO
Amazing how your reading skills improved those last couple of days, huh? It's like only yesterday you couldn't read a simple ruleset and "didn't know" fascists know each other.
Posted April 23, 2018
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RWarehall: Quite frankly, you were the one who let YOUR team down. Your better play would have been to sit back a little longer, let the natural course flow through with ZFR and Dedo's governments getting voted down, and then try to discredit me when you torpedo it or get lucky with bad cards which as a liberal I'd be obligated to defend you.

I've been consistent all game. I support the most established players which you will not be after your government fails to pass a liberal policy.
Wait, are you now saying if dedo government fails you're NOT picking scene as your chancellor?

If you were fascist (if scene proves fascist, you're cleared as liberal, but until that happens I take everything into consideration) then this could be a convenient excuse to sabotage your own government and go for chaos and get a fascist vote without giving us investigative power.

Before I vote NO for dedo, I want to know what's the alternative. So please clarify, RW. Whom are you picking?
Posted April 23, 2018
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RWarehall: I've been consistent all game. I support the most established players which you will not be after your government fails to pass a liberal policy.
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ZFR: Wait, are you now saying if dedo government fails you're NOT picking scene as your chancellor?
No, I'm saying that when Dedo's government is passed and does the wrong thing, we need to avoid both Scene and Dedo.

I'm frankly not sure at all what I should do if it comes to me. Scene has already laid out groundwork against me, shooting for a showdown if it comes to me and him. And if not Scene, what options are there?

Frankly, as the seemingly most confirmed, let him have the government of his choice (Dedo). Give him the rope to hang himself. I think they are both fascists, as such we trap two fascists for the price of one. And with a 3-0 lead, they just can't fake it again by passing a liberal policy. And should I be wrong about one of them, there is a decent chance we get a dispute out of it.
Posted April 23, 2018
I kinda regret I didn't read this thread for two days. You guys are crazy, writing 6 pages of wall of texts in just two days.

Lith strategy is to skip this one and vote the next government right? I'll follow that for now

VOTE NO
Posted April 23, 2018
So here I go being accused just for voting yes to ZFR. I did it because I didn't saw why we shouldn't check him out. But when I saw the huge opposition, I came to the conclusion that it's best to skip back as soon as possible to greek. Unfortunately it was to late to change my vote nor did it really matter. So I wouldn't read much into the votes. Also if I think about it announcing votes is a bit against the rules where they state that the votes are secret and players should flip them over all at once. Anyway my vote will be revealed by zeo soon enough.
Posted April 23, 2018
No time for longer replies. Will snipe though...

And Voting.


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kusumahendra: Lith strategy is to skip this one and vote the next government right? I'll follow that for now
This is not what Lift proposed. He flatout said he sees reasons for Yes voting and for No voting...

@Lift Please help our (maybe) fellow Liberal will you?

PS: See? I told you you were an authority.

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RWarehall: No, I'm saying that when Dedo's government is passed and does the wrong thing, we need to avoid both Scene and Dedo.
Ofc if it's your government passing Fascist there will be some reason to not blacklist both government members. :D

This blacklisting argument reminds me of JMich in the Resistance game. He was also trying to cover for being outed by a buddy.

I'll ask you what I asked him. Run the odds by us please. What are the odds that you are locking Liberals out versus locking Fascists out?

I mean, you were so into case by case play... this blacklist concept does not become you.


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ZFR: I didn't think anyone in their right mind would take that for anything but me venting off at Brasas.
And I didn't think anyone in their right mind would make shuch a shitpost...

Your later pronoun usage even made me unsure who you were "venting" at. Go back to 479 and check. Who is "him" in that quote reply?

Confused much?

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ZFR: But at least be consistent. You told RW I'm scummy because I provided lots of information. Now you say I'm scummy because I weaseled out of providing information.
Quote me or it didn't happen. Your scummyness is from shitpostign and slips. Refusing to be open with prog plays into it but is more NAI.

I grew to love readlists and expect you will evolve. Since I see RW pulled you from the edge, why don't you answer something I asked you ages ago: Analyze me.

I have given you my prog in detail. What is scummy on it? Do you really see suspicion of you as unjustfied? After all the slips?

PS: Your jokes and the forum glitch were things I read in your favor, not against you.

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ZFR: But you so far have conveniently ignored me asking you about it, what, 5 times now?
Well, if we're asking about ignored subjects you haven't yet answered what you were thinking when you asked Greek to "inverstigate" you because HE was the only one YOU trust. ;)
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionSecret Hitler #1: Legend of the Cows(1420 posts)(1420 posts)
(1420 posts)