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General discussionSecret Hitler #1: Legend of the Cows(1420 posts)(1420 posts)
(1420 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 22, 2018
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Brasas: Fair. But my main problem with you is that you find ZFR play in any way towny. Some effort posts are not that hard for scum to fake... in other games you've done it, I've done it... and ZFR is also our type.
Ok, so let me get this straight...
Pointing out misconceptions about outcomes like in 257 are somehow not towny?
Oh wait, you explain it, by hand-waving it away with "it's easy to appear town"
If it's so easy, why haven't you done it? Why haven't you actually contributed anything valuable?

How is any of this consistent with his play being "in no way towny".
Talk about gross mischaracterization...

But let's deep analyze some of ZFR's early posts...
Post 49 is interesting...suggesting we blindly vote yes to the first government so that we don't end up with Mafia day 1. A government which votes in a liberal policy. But maybe he's doing it for a scum buddy right? Probably not Scene, and Greek is as confirmed as can be.
Posts 53 and 55 shows he is paying attention to the game. That tends to lean liberal as well because it's usually Mafia who don't have to think as much.
Post 109 seems pretty informative too.
And on it goes...ZFR sure looks to be trying to be helpful as I ISO him...
Yes, he plays devil's advocate a bit too much at times, he voted "No" to his own government which seems an odd choice, but beyond that, I found his insights helpful.

That's why I question you, Brasas, with your insistence that his posts are "in no way towny". Because as I see it, you are the one out to lunch.
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But ok, so your "plan" was that we would all automatically vote for the 3rd government...
You dodged the question...how do we learn ANYTHING from that? Everyone votes "No" twice, then "Yes" and then Step 2 where we now instantly know who the scum are? How about fill in the blank on how this actually works?

Because what would really happen if that became a strategy is we would be stuck in useless Day 1 Mafia discussion for two entire governments, debating nothing because we have no information. Not even debating what government to pass since we are all just supposed to agree to automatically vote in the third. And even the third becomes a "no-brainer" where all of that discussion tells us nothing either. So 3 game days of Day 1 Mafia discussion, ugh...

Sorry, but this whole philosophy of yours doesn't seem to work.

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My plan, is to vote in favor of the governments which seem to have the most chance of voting in a liberal policy. ZFR has provided insight. Those with a track record have shown good inclination (we are up 3-0). So I've been voting "Yes" to those seemingly helping our cause, and if something goes wrong, guess I've left them some rope to hang themselves too.
Posted April 22, 2018
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Lifthrasil: @Brasas: the 'throwing shade' argument? Really? The classic accusation of scum players who run out of real arguments or explanation. Sure, it also comes often from overly sensitive town players or from newbies. The mis-conception: "Anyone who suspects me gets scum points!" You're not a newbie. So the question is: are you scum or are you just being overly sensitive to being questioned?
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RWarehall: But ok, so your "plan" was that we would all automatically vote for the 3rd government...
You dodged the question...how do we learn ANYTHING from that? Everyone votes "No" twice, then "Yes" and then Step 2 where we now instantly know who the scum are? How about fill in the blank on how this actually works?
You guys just drew my attention to something. Brasas's crusade against me started suddenly right after my posts (392, 400, 403) where I wrote that I won't be giving his NO votes any more leniency. Before that he didn't write much, if anything, against me, and after that all of a sudden his attacks started.
And through all that I still haven't heard from him a single straightforward answer regarding default NO being beneficial.
Posted April 22, 2018
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greeklover: There is a problematic scenario with the dedo+scene option.

Dedo+scene pass a fascist policy.
Dedo investigates brasas.
Dedo tells us that brasas is fascist.
If we believe dedo, what do we do? The only choice for president would be Adalia.
If the same happens with RW and we believe him, we can at least go with blotunga.
That's all true. Voting yes to dedo's government locks us on Brasas as the next president. Voting RW into office instead gives us more freedom later on.
But the question is: which president (dedo or RW) is more likely to pass a liberal policy to Scene if he draws one? The next government still has a good chance of drawing a liberal policy, if all policies have been reported correctly so far and it would be neat to get a 4-th liberal policy in place.

So: if we rate dedo and RW equally in terms of liberality, then I agree we should prefer RW as president. But for a while dedo seemed to me more liberal than RW. So I considered if dedo in office might be worth the risk of less choices later on.
However, currently dedo seems mostly absent.

@dedo: what do you think? Would you vote Yes to RW? What's your opinion on the whole ZFR/Brasas/RW discussion?
Posted April 22, 2018
I think this reply will work better broken up...

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RWarehall: If it's so easy, why haven't you done it? Why haven't you actually contributed anything valuable?
Says you...

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RWarehall: But let's deep analyze some of ZFR's early posts...
There's the weaseling... when I posted my reads first time I also had ZFR in the null bracket. That's water under the bridge by now.

I mean he has pretty much shitposted as scum. Did you conveniently miss that?

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RWarehall: That's why I question you, Brasas, with your insistence that his posts are "in no way towny". Because as I see it, you are the one out to lunch.
I even hedged my hyperbole mate... I'm not sure he is scum, although the odds look very slim. But I'm not going to dig in his defense. That's his job.

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RWarehall: But ok, so your "plan" was that we would all automatically vote for the 3rd government...
You dodged the question...how do we learn ANYTHING from that? Everyone votes "No" twice, then "Yes" and then Step 2 where we now instantly know who the scum are? How about fill in the blank on how this actually works?
First I will remind you I am playing this for first time and said very early on this was a meta based on Resistance.

Look at the game we are in, and the 3 governments that passed liberal policies with almost blanket yes voting, and yet we seem to have learned something. Do you really think we would be able to learn nothing if we had failed more governments in between?

I'm not going to fight your hypothetical, but like dedo way earlier you are almost asking me to prove a negative. I won't bite.

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RWarehall: ... and if something goes wrong, guess I've left them some rope to hang themselves too.
You're doing fine at that at least.

Are you sure you don't want to bus ZFR instead?

I have to think about what this means... it implies that without ZFR you are fucked... I mean... you still are in a good place to be president instead of dedo. But IMO you're risking that hugely... makes little sense to me honestly.

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ZFR: You guys just drew my attention to something. Brasas's crusade against me ...
I don't even think I pushed that hard... o_0

But ok, I'll go check the post numbers and tell you when you really pinged my radar.
Posted April 22, 2018
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RWarehall: If it's so easy, why haven't you done it? Why haven't you actually contributed anything valuable?
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Brasas: Says you...
And with responses like that or your random accusations of "weaseling" and this whole response of yours...

I'll point out one thing again...

WHERE'S THE CONTENT?

As to what we have learned...we learned which people in which governments are better relied on to pass liberal policies. I think we've discussed to what degree each decision can be relied on as well (frankly with ZFR being a seemingly valuable voice in those discussions). I'll take that over mere votes any day.

But if we do analyze votes, as you seem to be suggesting we should, your votes seem to stand out as you are voting "No" when all those governments did pass liberal policies. But of course, since you have an excuse we should somehow ignore that. Or maybe we should think you are a liberal because it would be "too crazy" for a fascist to have exposed himself like you did? Where now we should be giving free passes to those voting in opposition to the outcomes and suspecting those who voted correctly too many times. Classic WIFOM. How about picking one, should votes be looked at intensely, or are we giving them free passes, or is it just you that gets a free pass?
Posted April 22, 2018
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Brasas: As for investigation, if you are president then don't investigate RW as per the overall discussion we would want to skip him to get to greek faster. It almost hurts me to say that since RW is the one I'd really want to investigate myself if it came to that... but I think the play is to investigate me or blotunga. Please reply to this, does it change your mind?
My mind isn't made up and if it actually comes to investigation we can work it out then. If everyone agrees that RW should be skipped then there isn't that much point on wasting the investigation on him.


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ZFR: I actually used random.org to get those 3 names for him (in case anyone did take those names in any way seriously).
Really? Such things always puzzle me since I know how lazy I am to do basic things let alone go to a site, type stuff in to generate a result I can just throw together considering I know next to nothing anyway.

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ZFR: If whether I write something or not is useless anyway then I choose to do the thing that doesn't waste my time.
Oh, wait. You also don't like wasting time. Huh...


Anyway, most everyone seem to be on board so

I nominate Mr. Scene for Chancellor
Posted April 22, 2018
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Brasas: First I will remind you I am playing this for first time and said very early on this was a meta based on Resistance.
Here's a suggestion. Since I never played Resistance, would you please explain why a fixed, pre-announced 'NO' vote makes sense in that game? How does Resistance work? I still don't see the benefit of this meta in this game, but assuming that tricks from another game work in a similar game is something I could understand.
Posted April 22, 2018
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Brasas: First I will remind you I am playing this for first time and said very early on this was a meta based on Resistance.
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Lifthrasil: Here's a suggestion. Since I never played Resistance, would you please explain why a fixed, pre-announced 'NO' vote makes sense in that game? How does Resistance work? I still don't see the benefit of this meta in this game, but assuming that tricks from another game work in a similar game is something I could understand.
I'm in favor of this, especially since ZFR also claims to have played Resistance a lot in the past and doesn't agree.
Posted April 22, 2018
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dedoporno: Anyway, most everyone seem to be on board so

I nominate Mr. Scene for Chancellor
Good nomination in any case. But would you care to answer my question from above? Would you vote Yes to RW if your own government fails? What's your opinion on the whole ZFR/Brasas/RW discussion?

Also @all: How about we try something different this time? I would suggest not to state openly what you vote this time. It's good to discuss the pros and cons like we did, but the final decision should be taken secretly. I want to force the hand of the fascists. They have an agenda and know, whether this proposed government is part fascist or liberal. They will be desperate by now to get a fascist into office and to avoid another Liberal-Liberal government. So let's make them vote accordingly. Let us take the possibility of counting votes away from them.

I, for one, can see good reasons to vote dedo into office but also not to do it. So my vote isn't set yet and I'm not going to state publicly what it will be!
Posted April 22, 2018
CURRENT PROPOSED GOVERNMENT
President: Captain Dedo (dedoporno)
Chancellor: Mr. Scene (supplementscene)

Please PM me your yes/no votes on whether you wish for this setup or not, if you haven't done so already. There must be a majority "yes" for this to pass.
Posted April 22, 2018
@RW - the content in this game is more important than your bait... what can I say...

I need to be AFK now, not sure I can still come back tonight. Will try though...


So I went back to page 10 (I have the long post count per page setting).

This was around when I started my business travel, I had noticed your earlier comment that Scene much later used to really put pressure on you, but that whole discussion you had with Scene I had glossed over, so I kept it back of mind but gave it little weight.

373 I asked folks to openly state their vote
374 you replied - was a nice funny :)

381 you warn me about the No voting
389 I reply - a crusade against you I do not see...
see points 2.2 and 2.3 where I rank you higher than cristi or blotunga
I basically tell you why I will vote No and none of it is because of you per se...
I ask you for reads though

391 you kind of weasel out of it... I don't make much of it though
392 you double down on my no voting
393 I reply and again, I don't see any crusade there - I did needle you about not wanting attention, and guess why? because you didn't want to give reads and were engaging me... so why not push a bit?

400 you actually back down somewhat
403 again

417 and 418 you're dancing with Scene
420 is when I am back and despite provocating kusu when I reply to you still I'm still feelin very neutral

421 you are a bit unhinged IMO, but still funny
423 I'm trying to relax you... whatever alignment you have it's win/win
and I push on the potential slip from earlier on... to see what happens

424 still emotions and triple posting bug on top and I don't think your answer is strong
426 I reply and tell you that

432 you joke again, and I'm starting to think there's something actually there
435 you slip again here IMO

443 you crack another joke
445 I'm back and here I do push harder - I accuse you directly (because why not, let's see what happens)
I point out the slip in 435 - two strikes but who's counting
I still give you the benefit of the doubt and practically invite anyone to help you
I also reply to your joke and why not... I decide to push where it might hurt... but even here I give a strong hint that if you're Liberal you shouldn't bite. (the Mystic River reference)

Well... you bit. So I shot you and dumped you in the Mystic. ;)

No really, I have even told you how you can regain cred. You're not interested...

I am honestly amazed that anyone can think you're Liberal at this point. The only reason I still doubt my scum read of you a bit is that RW is a strong player, and scum RW maybe knows you are Liberal and is trying to hit a homerun by defending you.

If I was scum with you I'd have thrown you under the bus... nothing personal. First scum game is always tough.
Posted April 22, 2018
I've been trying to post this for the last couple of days and it hasn't posted once, last updated it's content about 14 hours ago. In addition to the below I do like Lift's analysis, should we assume all 3 fascists vote in the same way? I think so.

I'm suspicious of Yes votes and Liberals think, if either myself or ZFR are fascist they had to vote Yes to get a fascist policy through now that they're 3-0 down. They likely vote no only if it's 2 Libs. Interestingly ZFR's government got only 4 votes, could these be Hitler and 3 fascists?

Are Bishop Bling (ZFR), General Warehall (RWarehall), Adalia the Bookkeeper (adaliabooks), Chief Blotunga (blotunga) our secret fascists? RWarehall also voted alongside ZFRs wishes previously.

Yesterday's post that didn't update:


Right so ZFR hasn't been passed as president. If he's a liberal this is a mistake from liberals but whether he is a liberal/fascist/hitler he's created suspicion through his words/actions imo. He seemingly feels upset right now but we're all trying to investigate and judge on players actions are we not? So if you are upset ZFR maybe you have yourself to blame and if you are genuinely liberal than you have let the side down because many are suspicious that you are not because of your actions.

And yes ZFR is correct that we should discuss potential investigations with Dedoporno alongside his chosen nomination. His policy of investigating potential president candidates prior to their turn also makes sense.

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ZFR: dedo then adalia = reject RW + reject me and blotunga
dedo then me = reject RW and adalia + reject blotunga
RW then adalia = reject dedo + reject me and blotunga
RW then me = reject dedo + reject adalia + reject blotunga
RW then blotunga = reject dedo + reject adalia and me

Given this, will you vote No to dedo's team no matter what?.
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Brasas: MODS I find this confusing. IS there an easy way to see the board to see what the presidental order is.

Essentially from my understanding we now have a choice of either Dedoporno or whoever comes after Dedo as president. Otherwise if we reject both does a fascist card/policy get turned without any chance to see it?

So liberal team if that holds up as correct, we'll have to weigh up our 2 options. In theory they could be both liberal or both fascist.

Liberals who have more time on there hands. Anyone fancy drawing up a table of votes? We could then compare and contrast voting intentions
Posted April 22, 2018
Guys, when you use acronyms from other games can you explain them? I have no idea what AtE or WIFOM means.
Posted April 22, 2018
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supplementscene: MODS I find this confusing. IS there an easy way to see the board to see what the presidental order is.

Essentially from my understanding we now have a choice of either Dedoporno or whoever comes after Dedo as president. Otherwise if we reject both does a fascist card/policy get turned without any chance to see it?
The presidential order goes clockwise around the board, or down the list on the OP from top to bottom (in numerically ascending order).
Dedoporno is your current president. If this government is rejected, RWarehall will be president. If that government is rejected, the top policy in the policy deck will be automatically enacted, regardless of whether it's fascist or liberal. No associated presidential policies, if any, will be activated, Adaliabooks will become the next president, and anybody (even people from the previously-elected government) could then become chancellor.
Posted April 22, 2018
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Lifthrasil: But would you care to answer my question from above? Would you vote Yes to RW if your own government fails?
Sorry, I missed your question about that. I'll answer that after you tell me something first - you suggested to keep votes secret so fascists stand out more which I find to be a great idea. It's quite obvious how I'm going to vote on my own government but my next vote might not be as clear for various reasons. Do you think your idea is only beneficial for this particular election? If no, doesn't asking me what I plan to do next conflict with the notion of secrecy?
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General discussionSecret Hitler #1: Legend of the Cows(1420 posts)(1420 posts)
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