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Braggadar: then why haven't I been brainwashed into adoring the British royal family, I wonder?
A Country Practice stopped filming years ago. ;)
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myconv: Like real British people do adore their monarchy despite it being but a parasitic existence sucking up wealth from the people.
NO
WE
FUGGING
DONT!
Post edited December 15, 2023 by Sachys
The true thing is that the RPG titles (just an example) should have different cultural backgrounds to be refreshered indeed.

Even since the years Unlimited Adventures DOS game was launched, the fan made adventues created with oriental or middle east backgrounds had my interest the most than the typical and topical germanic, anglosaxon, european way of things, and the reason is because after years and years of reading, playing and watching the same, the sense of adventure, discovery and novelty is lost.
A quest based in four multicultural weirdos discovering some ruins in the desert is more interesting for me than four paladins in a copy paste quest against orcs in the search for a grial of some kind, all under a familiar medieval background

There is nothing bad with the european, anglosaxon Tolkienist kind of things, believe me, I know a lot about it, years and years. But I know it enough, maybe it is starting to be a bit generic and boring, a new way of etnocentrism, this time in videogames

Something pre classic greek ,Arabic, somethig persian, something african, north or south, something pre hispanic american, chinese, something oceanic.....

The OP have a point of some kind honestly
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Braggadar: then why haven't I been brainwashed into adoring the British royal family, I wonder?
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Sachys: A Country Practice stopped filming years ago. ;)
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myconv: Like real British people do adore their monarchy despite it being but a parasitic existence sucking up wealth from the people.
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Sachys: NO
WE
FUGGING
DONT!
I didn't say all British people adore royalty, but there are British people who adore royalty. I'm sure the crowds that appear at their stupid events (weddings, funerals, miscellaneous silly stuff) weren't bribed to be there. And the fact that some of these events make world news is because there are people who care about that shit.
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Sachys: A Country Practice stopped filming years ago. ;)
Oof. Now I've got that blasted theme music in my head.
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darktjm: Again, if you set your game in medieval Europe (but with magic and other extras), expect medieval Europe. Don't just change things that you find undesirable, without good reason.
Sounds like another variant on 'Keep the tropes intact and don't be original because I am used to the tropes and don't like new or change.'

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darktjm: If your reason is politics, I'd prefer not to hear it. I don't play games to find out your political views,
All expressions of belief can be called "political". All writing amounts to expressions of belief. Following this chain of logic, it amounts to you saying don't want games with story. Well the main topic is about stories so....

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darktjm: Also, stop putting your words into my mouth.
What are you saying I misunderstood?

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darktjm: All intelligent creatures have the means to control their lives, so they naturally do so. Some want to control others (unless they are a hive mind). Some will succeed at that. Having rulers is natural. Having those rulers portray themselves as good and necessarily via force and propaganda is natural. This does not mean that people "need" or even want rulers, but they do have to live with them. The best they can hope for is that their rulers don't screw them over too much.
What is the point of this speech?
Post edited December 15, 2023 by myconv
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myconv: I'm sure the crowds that appear at their stupid events (weddings, funerals, miscellaneous silly stuff) weren't bribed to be there.
Crowds are mostly tourists for the big events.
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Breja: No, I believe in owning everyone with facts and logic.

I'm not a right winger at all, and I am an atheist. Better luck next time. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a political oponent or an extremist.

Beyond that, I can't really continue this discussion with you, since political discussion of this sort is not allowed on this forum and I don't want to get banned. All I can say is that you seem desperately in need of better education. Read, read, and then read some more, and then perhaps you'll develop some understanding of things like long term cultural context of modern works of fiction.
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Gudadantza: You want to be treated as an "humanist" wielding such prejudices that makes you to use terminology like "woke" against something which sounds to you "leftist"?

If you dislike the OP central idea you could have used different ways to show you point of view, all of them different to the use and abuse of fake right winged clichés. Probably so much cliché as the OP.
He doesn't see it that way. In his mind, saying things like "Read more, you woke person!" is a completely acceptable and apolitical thing to say, and is in fact "owning everyone with facts and logic".

*shrug* what can you do? If it quacks like a duck...
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rojimboo: If it quacks like a duck...
It may be a lyrebird?
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Sachys: A Country Practice stopped filming years ago. ;)

NO
WE
FUGGING
DONT!
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myconv: I didn't say all British people adore royalty, but there are British people who adore royalty. I'm sure the crowds that appear at their stupid events (weddings, funerals, miscellaneous silly stuff) weren't bribed to be there. And the fact that some of these events make world news is because there are people who care about that shit.
We got billions of people, so naturally, if we try to gather them, there is always a sufficient amount of people sharing your enjoyment. The only people that are truly rare are the ones truly loving you; as it takes come guts falling in love with someone.

Surely I agree humans love a hierarchy in general, as they apparently always need someone or something in order to "look up" and if they cant "look up" anymore the may lack any positive feeling and even the love itself may ultimately die. Maybe because it will put themself somewhat out of their own misery... of being insufficient in some way and apparently by its very nature "a sheep with 2 legs".

Humans that do not need to look up... nor look down... who simply see stuff as close to the reality as possible... are a rather rare species.
Post edited December 16, 2023 by Xeshra
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myconv: […]
Note: You may notice in that last paragraph I put ' around 'rightful' each time since all 'royal bloodlines' start with someone taking power with violence. No royalty is ever truly 'rightful' and the concept itself is sickening.
[…]
False. The Anglo-Saxon aristocrats, for one example, elected their monarch from their peers.
What if they were called a Chairman instead of King or Queen?
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myconv: […] That's […] the capitalist propaganda that says we can't do better than capitalism and humans by nature need to be controlled by 'elites' […]
There are elites in Soviet and Chinese communism; it is not a capitalist trope. The difference between the two systems is that Socialists have succumbed to what Thomas Sowell (Social Justice Fallacies, 2023) called the Chessmaster fallacy, whereas Capitalism respects the merit of the market to adjudicate fate.
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myconv: […]
Also a side note that idea that some people are just better than others can also be found in other stuff like in many super hero stories.
[…]
What do you mean? Surely you are not suggesting that all people are identical in physical prowess, mental acuity, and spiritual or ethical demeanour? Or do you mean that all people should be treated equally under the law? If the latter, I concur. If the former, then you are clearly devoid of a sufficiency of analytical skills married with disinterested desire for empirical truth, otherwise you would see the merit in assessing people as differently abled.


truepurple: since all 'royal bloodlines' start with someone taking power with violence.
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myconv:
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CarChris: By doing good deeds. For example, by slaying a monster that's terrorizing the people.
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myconv: I was talking about in RL
This is called the motte-and-bailey fallacy.
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myconv: […]
Even Startrek is very vague on their utopia future.
[…]
Star Trek is set in a post-scarcity milieu.
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dtgreene: In SaGa 1, you actually do reach paradise early in the game. […] There's really very little you can do here; all you can really do is use the pool to heal (if you need it) and leave, continuing on.
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myconv: That's hardly imagining paradise. How does it work and how did they get there? […]
If we could envision a working utopia, Socrates, then surely someone would have created it.

I note the complete absence of any postulation from you. What possible utopia could there be? Perhaps you mean a Utopia without any social structure: a flat social strata within an anarchosyndacalist commune? That idea (for a society, not a small group) died before the twentieth century was half over.

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myconv: Furthermore it's also the absence of alternatives to feudalism or capitalism in most stories that can help convince people that working alternatives don't exist and can't exist.
Humanity hasn’t found a working alternative, otherwise posters to this thread would have pointed it out again and again.
Well. humans are working until the very edge in order to satisfy their greed. However, around 95% at some day will realize they simply will go nowhere... in german we call it (which is way better to understand) "auf keinen grünen Ast kommen". Guess in the US and UK it is not even allowed to think "you could fail" but for the majority this is the case... just forbidden even to speak out this harsh truth on some "dreamer countries" who got in mind "you could just reach everything in your life"... which is, for most of us, rather a fairy tale. The elitists (the hierarchy involved, humans enjoy so much) share a certain fraction of the huge "wealth cake" and they do not enjoy sharing it... so it will always be maybe 5% being elitist: The others can die trying but they will never succeed.

Whatever, as long as the majority got in mind they are able to "reach" something else, everything works fine... they simply need their dream, their illusion... However, in recent times, it is not working that well anymore, so we have to generate mountains of cash (with huge inflation) never seen before... in order to activate this sort of greed. Although the people kinda notice it is nothing more than fake (as soon as they get more, the cost of living is increasing twice that much and the coins will mostly always become stuck at the same spot) ) so their motivation is kinda at one of the lowest levels in history. I guess, the young new generation is very risky and no one knows what will happen the next few decades.

I am still not sure the capitalistic system is the "best system ever made"; for short term gain... yes indeed, but for long term gain... to much destruction, to much suffering and to less "gentle handling of the resources", so it could be a one way ticket.

At least we got enough of "male humans" in order to become sacrificed for our "dreams", because there is 10% more male newborns... the nature seems to know how to handle our sense for "aggression". Just hard to tell what to do with all the "elderly woman"; as they simply life much longer in general, especially in countries with lot of war.
Post edited December 17, 2023 by Xeshra
Is it so hard to be critic because of the everyday etnocentrism kind of things?

Come on. You are not so naif

That was the reason the 2004 (and pre or onwrds) slavic splash was a great fresh air and creative boom time in videogames

There is no reason to be a stubborn idiot. Because each culture can be quested if the fanatasy is rich and qualified,

The matter is that it never is.
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myconv: […]
Note: You may notice in that last paragraph I put ' around 'rightful' each time since all 'royal bloodlines' start with someone taking power with violence. No royalty is ever truly 'rightful' and the concept itself is sickening.
[…]
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scientiae: False. The Anglo-Saxon aristocrats, for one example, elected their monarch from their peers.
What if they were called a Chairman instead of King or Queen?
That isn't different though, how did those aristocrats get their family power originally and maintain their power if not through violence and threat of violence? And not only do they elect the monarch from their own ranks of most likely ill-begotten power somewhere in the family tree, by your own words they can only elect from their own. They could not elect a commoner with a chain of hard working leaders in their family tree if they wanted to.

It doesn't matter if you change the name, a Chairman of a company that got there likely because of connections and rich family or personal ill-begotten wealth and connections is just aristocracy and nobility with a make over and better disguise. Well not quite as bad as the direct violence of feudalism of the past but still bad.

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myconv: […] That's […] the capitalist propaganda that says we can't do better than capitalism and humans by nature need to be controlled by 'elites' […]
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scientiae: There are elites in Soviet and Chinese communism; it is not a capitalist trope. The difference between the two systems is that Socialists have succumbed to what Thomas Sowell (Social Justice Fallacies, 2023) called the Chessmaster fallacy, whereas Capitalism respects the merit of the market to adjudicate fate.
First you start with the "what about-ism" fallacy. I am no fan of Stalin or Mao nor do I think what they implemented was socialist or communist in nature. But even if I was a tanky who believed it was purely the circumstances of the situations plus false proganda and further pointed out the many capitalist nations today who are essentially failed states in terrible condition because of capitalism, all the above would still be beside the point.

The point is a failure of imagination in much storytelling regarding social structures, something a fiction and especially scifi story should be rich in. Rather a dogmatic clinging to the propogandish like pro-capitalist concept that 'capitalism is just the purest expression of human nature and it is simply impossible to do better'. Stories that would more readily imagine travel speed many times faster light or time travel or artificial gravity etc. than imagine something other than capitalism or feudalism.

I looked up your "chessmaster fallacy". It amounts to not seeing reality for what it is, that accusation of yours that my suggesting we can imagine societies that aren't feudalistic or capitalist and yet be successful is immersion breaking unrealistic just contributes to my point instead of refuting it. I didn't bother to look up your "Social justice" fallacy, looks too similar to "social justice warrior" those on the right love to use as a insult.

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myconv: […]
Also a side note that idea that some people are just better than others can also be found in other stuff like in many super hero stories.
[…]
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scientiae: What do you mean? Surely you are not suggesting that all people are identical in physical prowess, mental acuity, and spiritual or ethical demeanour? Or do you mean that all people should be treated equally under the law? If the latter, I concur. If the former, then you are clearly devoid of a sufficiency of analytical skills married with disinterested desire for empirical truth, otherwise you would see the merit in assessing people as differently abled.
I didn't say that everyone is as good at any one thing as everyone else. But the attitude of the feudalist and capitalist loving apologists is that some people are better than other people, period, full stop. More important valuable capable beings than those inferior drags of society.

You know that the IQ test which has become synonymous with how intelligent someone is is based on the idea that there are people just smarter than others. And sure there might be some variation where someone is better at something and worse at something else, but generally these more intelligent people are better at everything across the board and the reverse with the "less intelligent" people. Leaving little to no room for the reality that someone can excel at one thing but suck at everything else and so on. Setting aside how bad the IQ test is for measuring ability is, it is based on the extremely flawed capitalist feufalist idea of some people just being better than others.

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myconv: […]
Even Startrek is very vague on their utopia future.
[…]
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scientiae: Star Trek is set in a post-scarcity milieu.
Maybe "post scarcity" because they got away from capitalism. We currently now have enough food, water etc to provide for the world population and then some. It's not scarcity that leaves some still living in squalid and dying under cruel oppression, it's capitalism.

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myconv: That's hardly imagining paradise. How does it work and how did they get there? […]
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scientiae: If we could envision a working utopia, Socrates, then surely someone would have created it.
LOL as if, Socrates was no master visionary. And even if xhe was, that wouldn't be relevant.

Let's say you have a task that needs to be done for survival, working a field for crops. Optimal would be both sharing food and working the field together in cooperation. Much less optimal would is if one person did all the work with only a fraction of the portion of the food while the other person just stood by watching for escape and a whip to dole out punishment if the worker didn't work as hard as the master expects.

But if it was practical to not have slavery they would have done it centuries ago. But no one could imagine a world without slavery because it's not practical.

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scientiae: I note the complete absence of any postulation from you. What possible utopia could there be?
It is a common practice of right wing leaning person (which maybe you are not, who knows) to make perfect the enemy of improving things. If you can't get "utopia" and "utopia" is conveniently defined as utterly perfect, then there is no point in improving things at all.

But I could get into great depth regarding better systems for more democracy/equality/freedom. Except this thread is about stories in media lacking imagination in these things, not me personally filling in the gap left by their lack of writer imagination.
Post edited December 18, 2023 by myconv
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scientiae: Humanity hasn’t found a working alternative, otherwise posters to this thread would have pointed it out again and again.
This is a loaded bad sound-bite argument the capitalist apologists commonly pull out. Responding to it would plunge us into a political discussion that would never end. Suffice to say it isn't true.

Regardless, we are talking about stories in media. Not the past, whatever that pasts true face might be. Do you think the Wright siblings would have invented airplanes if they used that logic, "If it were possible to fly like this, someone would have already done it".

And again we are talking fantasy and scifi stories where your imagination can go wild. Yet only boring feudalism and capitalism for the most part. We wouldn't want to make things too unrealistic [/sarcasm]
Post edited December 18, 2023 by myconv
Guess the fantasy has ended when it comes to social structures or even some basics of politics. Guess breaking free of this "hard coded belief" is to much of a struggle. Surely difficult, as you are growing up with this and it never ever stops nagging on you. Of course "nagging" may have a positive touch to it, it all depends on your position and your view.

At this point the, apparently, required slavery comes into effect. Now there are people who are amassing a lot of cash in order to "avoid slavery", achieving might and thus control. Although, in the end they are still some slave... the slave of their medium... the cash itself, or simply their capitalistic approach seeking to set free of slavery, yet... once again will fall into slavery. I never said that people could not enjoy to be a slave... this is a matter that have to be taken into account. Still, it kinda seems hard, nearly impossible, not to become enslaved by any entity at all. It will only work if any value you ever had will become stripped from you, so all that is left is only you and nothing else. However, naturally our body is not self sufficient, so it needs external factors in order to live. Who knows... maybe some humans can live a eternity without food or water, yet i lack a good proof. I only can say, as long as the body is in need of something else, some sort of low grade slavery will never truly stop.

Freedom is another relative term, i never had in mind i, and we, would be totally free... not on earth, this is certain. However, at least i can live in peace with basic human needs, such as love, able to travel, getting food and being sheltered... this is already a very high freedom many humans never get. Yet i am not even sure i am sufficiently loved and the entire humankind is somewhat loveless to me... i guess this constant "struggle for love" is the basic concept of way to many media including games, together with the reality of slavery and how to break free in a sufficient way.
Post edited December 17, 2023 by Xeshra