I'm not twisting your words at all.

Both of your quotes come after mine so, yes, you even said "no-one would do it" right after I told you that I would.

Our hypothetical situation plays out like this.
jamotide: No-one would do X.
xyem: I did X.
jamotide: No-one would do X.

Begin the quotes of the posts where you call a theory of mine crazy!

Yes, we are talking about the creation of 100 accounts so quit switching to the theory that "a rep attack is possible",which you have never called crazy, to try and make it look like you have admitted being wrong.

It being a waste of time? Irrelevant.
It only taking 5-10 accounts? Irrelevant.

jamotide: No-one would create 100 accounts to downrep someone.
xyem: I would make 100 accounts to downrep someone. Admit you are wrong to say that no-one would.
jamotide: No.

It isn't me making the 100 accounts that is the evidence to prove you are unable to admit being wrong, it is the evidence to prove you are wrong about no-one making 100 accounts to downrep someone.

It is you not admitting you are wrong about no-one creating 100 accounts to downrep people after I have created 100 accounts to downrep someone that is the evidence that you won't admit you are wrong.

xyem, are you a grown man? Do you have a life? Then let it be. We all know you're right.

I think this is pointless, xyem. Jamotide doesn't even understand what he is reading. He just picks out a few words to which to reply and disregards everything that doesn't fit his pre-made thought model. Hell, he's so fixed on a few (intentionally misunderstood) words from you that he entirely ignored me. He didn't even reply once. (probably because he didn't have a reply)
I think it is safe to assume that he for some reason doesn't like you and just wants to quarrel with you. It's not about the content of what you post. Otherwise he would long have admitted being wrong. For probably, for some strange reason, just the fact that it is you who posts something is enough to disagree with it. It is really not worth discussing with such people. Just make your 100 accounts and prove your point and that's it.

Or you could make another test game. State something obviously true, like that water is wet or something. I'm sure jamotide would find a way even to disagree with that! :-)

I know it is pointless. You're both right.

I doubt anyone could reasonably argue that jamotide has misunderstood me at this point, meaning I've cemented the fact that he can't be trusted pretty firmly.

I don't even need to do that. I made my point when I said I was willing to do it.

All I said was a guy spending hours to downrep someone is crazy. Now that we know it only takes 5 to 10 accounts its obviously possible and not so crazy. But still nobody would make 100 accounts like your original crazy theory suggested.
Yes you should not trust me, wasnt aware that this was the issue here. Thought we were talking about your insane theory.

@Lithrasil Water isnt wet itself, it makes stuff wet. Glad to oblige.

And just exactly how is the data you are gathering useful when it remains unknown which user or users is clicking the minus button? You do not have the means to gather sufficient useful data to identify whether the system is being abused by anyone or not.

Ever notice it is only certain well known personalities who seem to have issues with rep? That right there says to me there is not actually any real need to be looking for abuse of a system that is working as intended I guess. Speaking of which, I wonder what exactly is the intention of the system. For example, how do I benefit from observing that a lot of people click the minus button on any particular individual's posts? How is that information useful to me actually? I cannot think of any way in which that information is useful at all. It tells me only that certain folks do not like certain of their posts. That's it.

What really ought to happen with the rep "issues" around here is they ought to disappear. It is not worth talking about nor taking notice of.

I do not consider all of this hoopla about rep on an Internet forum to be within the realm of what I'd call adult behavior personally.

Once again, if some people get off on clicking a minus button, just let them. Fuck it. It isn't important and if we do not piss people off frequently with inane, irrelevant, ignorant, racist, sexist, objectionable, insulting, thoughtless posts we will not need to worry about our precious and also completely useless reputation here taking a hit generally speaking.

If ever there was much ado about nothing - this is surely it. We could do quite nicely without this silly forum drama in my opinion.

By the way Xyem, please do not interpret this as an attack on you in any way, shape or form. I suspect your heart is in the right place here and think well of you. My comments are much more general in nature. I am tired personally of drama about rep here and feel it is unnecessary. I am of the opinion that the rep system on these forums should be removed and wrote to GOG quite some time ago regarding this and making a case for why they should go given the negative affect they have on the forums without any real benefit to justify it.

Also, none of my comments should be interpreted beyond what is explicitly said. If I did not come right out and say something directly, you can safely assume I do not mean whatever it is you might imagine I mean. I am a big fan of being direct. I cannot stand passive-aggressive dancing around which is what I consider clicking that little minus button to be in many cases.

As for TinyE who I see gets mention and so I will as well, I wish people would just leave the guy the fuck alone. Apparently some folks around here are too fucking stupid and too fucking hateful to just live and let live in a case where obviously the guy just wants to fit in and be a part of the community. It is mean spirited, shitty behavior to be constantly clicking minus on anybody when it is known that some people's feelings get hurt by this stuff. Those of you who do this feeling self-righteous or angry or annoyed or whatever it is you feel are acting like assholes and ought to learn to be more tolerant in consideration of the certain fact that you yourselves like the rest of humanity are far from perfect.

Passing this along at Xyem's request:

Could you do me a favour and post this *entire* PM in the RepLog topic when I ask you to (which should be when jamotide replies after post #274)? If you don't want to be involved, that's fine, please just let me know :)

Continuing my response to Lifthrasil in #274:

"..trusted pretty firmly. Just watch him suddenly 'get it', say he misunderstood me and admit he is wrong now, just to prove me wrong! :)"

I don't need to know who is downrating, This data can show who is consistently losing rep.

From that, I get a shortlist of people whose posts I would need to monitor for becoming low-rated. If they consistently have posts that are in no way downrateable (like saying "Thank you" to someone for helping them), then it's pretty obvious someone is abusing the system.

It's not just well known personalities.

The intention is stated in the support section... So seeing that lots of people have low-rated a post should indicate it is trashy or inappropriate. However, that clearly isn't the case as I've seen posts like "I seem to have lost some rep" in a discussion about rep get low-rated.

As GOG do not enforce even the remote use of the rating system correctly, it has fostered, at a minimum, a "popularity contest" mindset and in the worse case, a weapon to be used against someone you don't like.. undermining it completely.

There is a bit of irony that the posts that I have made that reveal how the post ratings system itself works are not high-rated. Apparently, they are either not insightful enough.. or someone is downrating them.


I've mentioned (somewhere) that sometimes, it isn't about the rep itself but the feeling of being attacked. People just mention rep because it is an indicator of such an attack.

What can I say, this is the internet :)

All you have to do is post an unpopular opinion or fall out with someone over something and you may find your rep taking a hit. Your statement is only true if the rating system was used properly. We are discussing the fact that it is not.

Indeed we could and that is the ultimate goal I generally work towards. Although I am guessing you disagree with my approach to doing so in this instance!

Actually, someone investing any amount of time in clicking a minus button to downrep some other person is crazy behavior. I doubt anybody would argue that by itself.

In fairness, you really cannot say that there is no crazy person that would not do something stupid like make 100 or even more accounts to downrep somebody. Sure, it does seem pretty unlikely. I'll give you that without question. On the other hand, just a few minutes each day reading the news is plenty of evidence that this particular sort of crazy is mild compared to what goes on all around the world every single day. Anything is possible when you are dealing with human beings. So it is best to avoid absolutes when making assumptions about human behavior because when it comes to crazy behavior all bets are off.

I don't know why you guys spent so many posts arguing about that point really. Was it really worth the time and effort for either of you versus any number of other things you might have done instead?

Just for fun and because I am foolish I guess...

I just started on page one of this thread and proceeded to click plus on every single one (and there were many) posts by TinyE to see what would happen if anything. His rep was 174 when I began this little exercise and it was 174 when I finished it.

I have no idea really what that means beyond finding out how little my clicks count in the grand scheme of forum life here I guess.

Yeah, found that out with a new member who got down-rated. 'Parrently you'd need to get it high-rated to offset the subtracted rep otherwise, like you said, nada.

Your points are well taken Xyem.

I feel that ultimately if a system is in place that people can abuse, human nature being what it is in many cases will result in abuse of the system. As I think you and SimonG both have pointed out probably more than one time here, the fact that abuse occurs is a known thing. I wouldn't argue that point but rather since this system can be abused whether by individual or mob mentality, I am sure it is too just on that basis alone.

So I guess what I failed to communicate very well was, why the need for a study when the answer is already known? People abuse the rep system to deliberately fuck with other people.

The question that needs to be answered in my mind is, how is this little problem solved? I like the path of least resistance myself, the beauty of simplicity - the removal entirely of the rep buttons. Problem solved. I think we could probably get along just fine without the minimal benefits of the system you pointed out to me. I can only speak for myself of course but I don't see those "benefits" as being any big deal at all. I can read and discern for myself which posts are interesting. I don't need green highlighting telling me what to read and I do not need posts to be hidden to protect me from terrible posts. I would gladly trade off those "benefits" to see rep abuse go away permanently and then nobody's feelings get hurt. If somebody has something to say to someone, they are going to have to come right out and say it or else let it slide, none of this passive-aggressive button clicking.

I think a simple post count is better for those that desire some little ego boost for their time in service on the forums whoever they may be.


I was just thinking what else could be good. Just kill the minus button and leave the plus button so folks can upvote posts they like for whatever reasons. This keeps things positive and retains half the benefit of the current system.

I think too that again human nature being what it is, hiding "bad" posts really doesn't help us at all. Wouldn't it be most likely that a person seeing a hidden post would become curious about that post, about why it was hidden and reveal it to see? I think more often than not that is what would happen. So much for shielding us from terribleness. It is this same morbid curiosity that creates traffic jams whenever there is an auto accident somewhere. Everyone just has to look even though it is not something very nice to look at potentially.

I am sorry. I have this really terrible habit of fixing mistakes and then adding stuff after I've posted something. Unfortunately too, if nobody has posted anything in the meantime, even clicking to make a new post just adds it to the original one. I will now read whatever you just wrote and try to catch up... lol

Much appreciated Shaolin_sKunk. Thank you for your help and time :)

I fully expected you to take that opportunity to claim that you had misunderstood me. I didn't say that extra sentence because I didn't want to make you think "If I say that I misunderstood now, he won't believe me now!", pressuring you to persist your claim.

Seems I was wrong, again.. and I'm undecided whether that is a good thing or not.

Just to ensure you don't claim that I asked Shaolin_sKunk to post that after you replied so I could claim I was wrong, I sent it to three other people who I am sure will confirm both the contents of the PM and the time which they received them. I'll leave it up to them to decide if they want to confirm it now or at your request.