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General discussionRelease: Quake II + III, Wolfenstein 3D, Return to Castle Wolfenstein(806 posts)(806 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 01, 2015
FPS Immortals are here.

Quake II: Quad Damage, Quake III: Gold, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny - are available now, DRM-free on GOG.com. You can pick them up at 33% off in two bundles:
<span class="bold">Quake Damage</span> & <span class="bold">Return to Wolfenstein</span>.





Wolfenstein 3D (with Spear of Destiny) is widely considered to be the first true 3D FPS ever. It single handedly kickstarted a generation of id Software greats, and thus influenced just about every FPS we've played ever since. Its mazes, shades of gray, and blue hues are burned into the collective gaming memory - plus you get to kill a mechanized Hitler. Classic.
In the early days of FPS gaming, Quake II: Quad Damage was the milestone. In a spot-on review from 1997, GameSpot calls it "the only first-person shooter to render the original Quake entirely obsolete." It was bigger, better, prettier, and smoother than any clone or predecessor - it also offered one of the most playable, and by far most popular multiplayer experiences of its day.
Quake III: Gold, aka. multiplayer revolution. Despite a controversial removal of the lauded single-player experience the series was known for, Quake III: Arena became a smash-hit and (together with Unreal Tournament) essentially defined arena-style, movement-based competitive gaming for years. The shooter spawned a community that's been living and breathing to this day.
In B.J. Blazkowicz's Return to Castle Wolfenstein, another legend is born. A unique, objective-based multiplayer mode saw immense popularity back in the day - and it was actually pretty okay if you're into that sort of thing. The single-player campaign is a dark, somewhat ridiculous freak show of morbid, scientific fantasy. An ever present sense of dread emanates from the disturbing experiments and cult-like universe, just waiting to be set afire - by you.


As with any Bethesda purchase, you'll also get The Elder Scrolls: Arena & Daggerfall for free!


Prepare to fight in Quake II: Quad Damage, Quake III: Gold, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Wolfenstein 3D and Spear of Destiny - now DRM-free on GOG.com. Return to the FPS immortals at 33% off in two bundles: <span class="bold">Quake Damage</span> & <span class="bold">Return to Wolfenstein</span>. The promo will last for one week, until October 8, 12:59 PM GMT.



The four titles released today are not available for purchase in Germany. These are legal restrictions that are beyond our control, and we're very sorry for the inconvenience.
Posted October 04, 2015
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classic-gamer: Some games like Medieval have already DRM. Victor Vran also had DRM in release version until the developer removed it partly.
In future there won't be any new titels without DRM, region locks and so on.

They have done it already!
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JKHSawyer: I can't find anything on Medieval having DRM besides it using Galaxy, and Victor Vran's DRM is related to multiplayer too. These are not the first games to do that on GOG...

Multiplayer having or needing an account is hardly shocking. The single-player is still playable with no connection required.
Repeating that argument don't make it better as it was already used in the discussions for that games. Using only the singleplayer especially for games like Victor Vran is comparable being forced just using half of the game and half of the product. Games like Majesty 2 or Borderlands (without Steam) - both using GameSpy - are really good previews what happens if a component needed is no longer available. I know the followed up sentence: "People have to get used to that online-multiplayer is the standard!" Simple as that: No, there has to nobody getting used to that if not willing to. Grand Ages: Medieval uses Galaxy to establish multiplayer-connections. What happens if the (so-called optional) client is not installed? Has anybody tried that? If the client is otherwise neede it is per definition DRM, nothing more and nothing less. If the multiplayer-option is disabled then if the client was not found it also not acceptable but therefore an individual decision. This would be also the reason for games not being available for Linux right now!
Post edited October 04, 2015 by throgh
Posted October 04, 2015
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MarkoH01: Not true. A foreign publisher does not have to follow German laws at all if he is selling from his country (even if the FSK would like to have it this way). I can import from UK and US whatever I want and there is no age verification process whatsoever that would be compliant with the one German laws require. German laws are simply not valid in foreign countrys - same with their laws in Germany (just think of the not valid EULAs).
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E_A: That is incorrect. See here :-)
I cannot find any proof against what I said in your post. You are speaking of some "crimes" commited in Germany or with Germans and therefore German law would apply but this is something completely different. GOG is a polish business which can sell to whoever they like. If they really HAD to follow all the restrictions their life would be very difficult since there are different restrictions in different countrys and how would they know every last one of them? Please post me a link where it is clearly stated that a foreign company does have to follow the laws of every country they are able to sell to.

Edit: I found it in your last sentence:
". §9 StGB (which also applies to the JMStV) rules that crimes committed outside of Germany whose results (in this case the endangerment of minors) happen inside of Germany have legally been committed on German soil. And that's why GoG is treading carefully."

But I don't agree. I would say that the StGB is different from JMStV and different rules apply if you are doing something against the StGB or the JMStV.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by MarkoH01
Posted October 04, 2015
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MarkoH01: Not true. A foreign publisher does not have to follow German laws at all if he is selling from his country (even if the FSK would like to have it this way). I can import from UK and US whatever I want and there is no age verification process whatsoever that would be compliant with the one German laws require. German laws are simply not valid in foreign countrys - same with their laws in Germany (just think of the not valid EULAs).
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E_A: That is incorrect. See here :-)
Right, they have to verify at least the age.

http://www.internetrecht-rostock.de/abmahnung-pegi-software.htm

"Fehlt die USK-Kennzeichnung, weil die Software aus dem EU-Ausland importiert wurde, gilt sie als USK-18 und darf an Minderjährige nicht abgegeben werden."

and after "Abmahnung wegen Verstoß gegen das Jugendschutzgesetz"

So how do they prevent that games are sold to minors? I can see nothing which prevents this at the moment.

Generally they also need some german contact person as they have no impressum and this is required as they sell explicitely to Germany (german forum and german support, ...)

http://www.impressum-recht.de/impressum-bei-auslaendischen-webseiten.html

The problem is at least the missing age verification and the "Jugendschutz".

Steam follows the rules and verifies the age (but I don't use Steam and don't know how they do it):
https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/2y5mbf/age_verification/
Post edited October 04, 2015 by DanielRuf
Posted October 04, 2015
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MarkoH01: But I don't agree. I would say that the StGB is different from JMStV and different rules apply if you are doing something against the StGB or the JMStV.
§§23, 24 JMStV are penal law and therefore subject to the "allgemeine Teil" of the StGB.
Posted October 04, 2015
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MarkoH01: But I don't agree. I would say that the StGB is different from JMStV and different rules apply if you are doing something against the StGB or the JMStV.
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E_A: §§23, 24 JMStV are penal law and therefore subject to the "allgemeine Teil" of the StGB.
O.K. - thank you for clarification here. However what do you say to my posted link (the chart was made while a lwywer was there according to the site).?
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DanielRuf: Steam follows the rules and verifies the age (but I don't use Steam and don't know how they do it):
https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/2y5mbf/age_verification/
That would be completely new to me. Steam does not have any for of age verification they simply just sell censored games most of the time when there is an 18+ version of the game. Sometimes they just don't care. I never had to let my age verify there and as far as I know they don't have anything of this kind included in their store. (They have a "enter your age" part when entering the site - but that does not mean anything according to German law).
Post edited October 04, 2015 by MarkoH01
Posted October 04, 2015
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MarkoH01: O.K. - thank you for clarification here. However what do you say to my posted link (the chart was made while a lwywer was there according to the site).?
Link please? These threads are getting a bit unwieldy :-)
Posted October 04, 2015
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MarkoH01: O.K. - thank you for clarification here. However what do you say to my posted link (the chart was made while a lwywer was there according to the site).?
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E_A: Link please? These threads are getting a bit unwieldy :-)
Fun thing - I was womdering where my link went just at the same time :)
Here it is:
http://www.telemedicus.info/article/1911-SchwenkeMoeller-Infografik-zum-JMStV-Update.html
Post edited October 04, 2015 by MarkoH01
Posted October 04, 2015
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E_A: Link please? These threads are getting a bit unwieldy :-)
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MarkoH01: Fun thing - I was womdering where my link went just at the same time :)
Here it is:
http://www.telemedicus.info/article/1911-SchwenkeMoeller-Infografik-zum-JMStV-Update.html
Well the games and the store are addressed to Germans (german support, german website, german payment providers) so the JMStV rules apply here.
Posted October 04, 2015
Thanks :-).

The footnote explicitly states that the JMStV "undoubtedly" applies to offers from German servers to Germans. Extensions beyond that are claimed to be largely untested.

While that is true for the most part, I would consider both case law and codified law pretty clear on the matter.

That said: my statements were specifically aimed at refuting the claim that German law would not apply to these sales. Which is, by my judgement, simply wrong.

From a practical legal perspective I would have cautioned against selling Wolfenstein (courts are still touchy about Swastikas) but would have considered Quake harmless. But in the end it's Bethesdas IP. If they want to be paranoid, there is little everybody else can do...
Posted October 04, 2015
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E_A: Thanks :-).

The footnote explicitly states that the JMStV "undoubtedly" applies to offers from German servers to Germans. Extensions beyond that are claimed to be largely untested.

While that is true for the most part, I would consider both case law and codified law pretty clear on the matter.

That said: my statements were specifically aimed at refuting the claim that German law would not apply to these sales. Which is, by my judgement, simply wrong.

From a practical legal perspective I would have cautioned against selling Wolfenstein (courts are still touchy about Swastikas) but would have considered Quake harmless. But in the end it's Bethesdas IP. If they want to be paranoid, there is little everybody else can do...
If this would be so easy, any illegal website which is addressed to Germans just has to host on a bulletproof hosting provider, but the website will still be indexed or banned.

And GOG uses CDN providers for delivering most content. What if the files come from a server in Frankfurt?

Well, generally these laws are just for protecting minors and prevent public presentation. Private use is totally ok.
Posted October 04, 2015
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E_A: ...(courts are still touchy about Swastikas) ..
That was the reason it was banned years ago but until 2004 it is "just" indexed because of 10yrs been expired.
Well, in the end it does not matter at all weather it is illegal to sell stuff here or it is not. The only thing imprtant is if GOG sells the game and they don't and probably won't. So all Germans should get it elsewhere imo and if Bethesda and GOG does not want our money it's their problem not ours imo.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by MarkoH01
Posted October 04, 2015
No. According to §24 Abs. I Nr. 1 b) JMStV and § 86a StGB Swastikas are practically always a no-go regardless of USK shenanigans. While a court may find that it's a legitimate use the risk is just not worth it.
Posted October 04, 2015
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DanielRuf: Well, generally these laws are just for protecting minors and prevent public presentation. Private use is totally ok.
Private use would in this case be the use on the buyer's side.
What GOG does (selling) is not private use. Meaning that the buyer would not be in trouble penal law-wise but for GOG the situation is different.
Posted October 04, 2015
Has anyone tried the multiplayer for RTCW? Does it work with a LAN?
Posted October 04, 2015
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DanielRuf: Well, generally these laws are just for protecting minors and prevent public presentation. Private use is totally ok.
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Piranjade: Private use would in this case be the use on the buyer's side.
What GOG does (selling) is not private use. Meaning that the buyer would not be in trouble penal law-wise but for GOG the situation is different.
I wonder if pirating Wolfenstein is actually legal when advertising and selling is forbidden but private use isn't.
Probably not, since there are German versions of every single Wolfenstein game without swastikas although those could be regarded as different products, hmm.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by Klumpen0815
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionRelease: Quake II + III, Wolfenstein 3D, Return to Castle Wolfenstein(806 posts)(806 posts)
(806 posts)