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Locked in a timeless conflict.

Massive Chalice, a kickstarter-born Double Fine strategy, is available 20% off, on Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, DRM-free on GOG.com!

A 300 year war draws near, your people need a leader. Massive Chalice is a turn-based strategy game that spans hundreds of years and outlives generations of fighters. It's a desperate fight where every advantage matters, and a strong bloodline is the greatest one you'll get. No human is perfect, but with careful planning you can breed and design the perfect army which complements itself like sophisticated puzzle. Family matters, so take good care of a young generation and they'll reward you with their lives - through valiant fight their weapons will become Bloodline Relics to be passed on to aid their children in the struggle. Massive Chalice requires you to plan for years and years ahead, as the Immortal Ruler of a nation locked in epic conflict.

As an added bonus, you can pick up the Original Soundtrack for Massive Chalice, also 20% off. Play it on repeat for 300 years!

Forge heroic bloodlines in Massive Chalice, available now, DRM-free on GOG.com.
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deonast: ...
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HiPhish: I don't care that they got more money than they expected, that's not how you do business. You start out with a plan for what you want to do and an estimate on how much time, money and manpower you will need. You leave yourself a small buffer in case something unexpected happens, because something will always happen, and that's what you set as your limits according to.

When it comes to Kickstarter you have to take into account the possibility that the amount of money you get is all the money you will ever get. A Kickstarter pledge is not an investment from an investor, it is a purchase by a customer. If you are releasing a product with a small appeal you have to expect that those Kickstarter purchases are all the sales you will get. So if you invest all of your Kickstarter money in it, you will only break even, not make profit.

Let's say I want to make a game that will cost me 100,000$ to produce (just some random number) and I get 500,000$ dollars. If I stick to my plan I will make 400,000$ profit. However, if I stretch my budget to 500,000$ all the profit is gone. Sure, I will make regular sales after release, but the majority of people who were interested into the game have already bought it.

Of course Double Fine had no idea what they were going to make, Tim Schafer just came out on camera like a Simpsons character "Hello, my name is Tim Schafer, you might remember me from games like Monkey Island and Full Throttle", and expected people to throw free money at him.

And yes, a point & click adventure is cheaper to produce than an RPG or FPS. Adventure games have no physics, no networking, no game rules, no balancing, no big levels, no actual mechanics... there is a reason why these types of games were so prevalent in the early days of home computers. All you need is a programmer, an artist and someone to design the puzzles and story.

You're right that you need to pay artists and composers, sure, but I never said that you didn't. Now in regards to voice actors, I don't understand the obsession of game companies to hire Hollywood actors to do voices. An actor is not a voice actor, they have different skill. It's incredible what real voice actors can do with their voices. So why on earth would you hire a body actor to do the work of a voice actor? I'll tell you why: because you got free money thrown at you and you really want to put "voiced by Elijah Wood" in your credits.

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deonast: I think some people blow things out of proportion a little.
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HiPhish: Over. Budget. On. 800%. Funding. If that is blown out of proportion a little for you then I don't want to know what would be justified criticism. Maybe if Double Fine tanked the entire economy you might see a problem with their money handling.
Ok one simple bunch of questions.
Did you back the double fine adventure?
If you did, did you get what you had anticipated (considering as you mentioned there was no plan on what the game was going to be besides a vague point and click adventure.

My 2 cents.
I got what I was after and at the end of the day planning miss management aside that is all that matters to me as a customer. I wanted a point and click adventure game + documentary on the making of and I got that. Even if I didn't I know kickstarter are a gamble. Anyone going into a kickstarter should realise that nothing is guaranteed and back or don't accordingly.
Bought it just because I realized GamerGaters hate it. I hate Gamer's gate and believe it to be a moral abomination of unlikely proportions. Take all my money double-fine! Take it all!
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Greywolf1: Isn't there anyone who can comment on Massive Chalice without any prejudices of the negative or positive kind?
I'll stream the game on GOGcom's twitch channel on Friday at 8 pm CEST. Maybe you could join us in chat to see if you like it. :-)

I don't know if I have prejudices.
I didn't back or play Broken Age but think it looks nice.
I liked what I had heard about the spacestation game but didn't buy it either - nevertheless I was a little sad when I heard that development had stopped.
I played and liked Stacking.
That's me and Double Fine so far.
Post edited June 03, 2015 by Piranjade
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deonast: ...
I don't do Kickstarter precisely because I have no idea if the result will be any good. I also didn't play Broken Age either.

Not that it matters though. I never commented on the quality of the end result, I talked about the process of production. And the reason I talked about it is because someone asked. If you got your money's worth that's great for you, but it does not change the fact that Double Fine grossly mismanaged their finances.

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thegoatgod_pan: ...
Since when does GamerGate hate Massive Chalice? Is there a press release from the Leader of GamerGate you can link me to?
Post edited June 03, 2015 by HiPhish
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deonast: ...
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HiPhish: I don't do Kickstarter precisely because I have no idea if the result will be any good. I also didn't play Broken Age either.

Not that it matters though. I never commented on the quality of the end result, I talked about the process of production. And the reason I talked about it is because someone asked. If you got your money's worth that's great for you, but it does not change the fact that Double Fine grossly mismanaged their finances.

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thegoatgod_pan: ...
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HiPhish: Since when does GamerGate hate Massive Chalice? Is there a press release from the Leader of GamerGate you can link me to?
So really all this discussion is irrelevant to the game at hand and only matters to people going to back new kickstarter projects (or perhahaps pre-orders) from Double Fine. So people should ignore this background noise if they are coming in new and what to buy a game.

So why are you putting so much effort into going over the flaws of double fine when you don't appear have any personal grievances eg kickstarter.

I'm sorry now I've just added more noise to what at the end of the day should be discussions of Massive Chalice.
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Tarhiel: What happened with Spacebase DF9?
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Matruchus: Basically Double Fine was developing Spacebase DF9 under Steam early access and at some point just decided to abandon it after cashing on it and released it with less then 1/4 of supposed content (they released an alpha version as a final release version) + they dropped support for it. It was one of the games I was quite excited about to see finished. So im quite cautios with their releases nowadays.
Damn it, no wonder people are mad at them - I would be too.
I remember this game and was looking forward/curious about the final result:

Pity it ended like this.
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deonast: ...
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HiPhish: I don't care that they got more money than they expected, that's not how you do business. You start out with a plan for what you want to do and an estimate on how much time, money and manpower you will need. You leave yourself a small buffer in case something unexpected happens, because something will always happen, and that's what you set as your limits according to.

When it comes to Kickstarter you have to take into account the possibility that the amount of money you get is all the money you will ever get. A Kickstarter pledge is not an investment from an investor, it is a purchase by a customer. If you are releasing a product with a small appeal you have to expect that those Kickstarter purchases are all the sales you will get. So if you invest all of your Kickstarter money in it, you will only break even, not make profit.

Let's say I want to make a game that will cost me 100,000$ to produce (just some random number) and I get 500,000$ dollars. If I stick to my plan I will make 400,000$ profit. However, if I stretch my budget to 500,000$ all the profit is gone. Sure, I will make regular sales after release, but the majority of people who were interested into the game have already bought it.

Of course Double Fine had no idea what they were going to make, Tim Schafer just came out on camera like a Simpsons character "Hello, my name is Tim Schafer, you might remember me from games like Monkey Island and Full Throttle", and expected people to throw free money at him.

And yes, a point & click adventure is cheaper to produce than an RPG or FPS. Adventure games have no physics, no networking, no game rules, no balancing, no big levels, no actual mechanics... there is a reason why these types of games were so prevalent in the early days of home computers. All you need is a programmer, an artist and someone to design the puzzles and story.

You're right that you need to pay artists and composers, sure, but I never said that you didn't. Now in regards to voice actors, I don't understand the obsession of game companies to hire Hollywood actors to do voices. An actor is not a voice actor, they have different skill. It's incredible what real voice actors can do with their voices. So why on earth would you hire a body actor to do the work of a voice actor? I'll tell you why: because you got free money thrown at you and you really want to put "voiced by Elijah Wood" in your credits.

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deonast: I think some people blow things out of proportion a little.
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HiPhish: Over. Budget. On. 800%. Funding. If that is blown out of proportion a little for you then I don't want to know what would be justified criticism. Maybe if Double Fine tanked the entire economy you might see a problem with their money handling.
A lot of what you say about game development costs just isn't necessarily true. With Flash, a lot of people could make Mario about as quickly as they could make an old point-click game. Maybe even faster, since side-scrollers can reuse visual assets a lot more than a point-click storybook game. You can make levels that look and play with totally new images and mechanics, but Super Mario Bros had what, overworld, underground, water, and lava dungeon? That's about it. Also, AAA movies are ridiculously expensive, and guess what? In your own words, "No game rules, no balancing, no big levels, no actual mechanics."

The larger picture about biting off more than they can chew is a serious strike against the studio for sure. But "lolol point click so easy to make" is about as true as saying "I can make Pixar movies in my basement". The labor hours simply go somewhere else.

If they want to sign Elijah Wood, fine. Unless you have the same gripe with the film industry in general, which is a bit inflated on the A-list celebrity side, granted. But if a game developer wants to use an interactive medium to do a movie-like sort of thing, then being able to sign big names is a sign that people take games more seriously than they used to.

I haven't played Broken Age yet, and I don't know a ton about it. Budget bungling is bad. But I'm not against the concept of signing a Hollywood voice that people will instantly recognize, especially if it's a sort of niche personality who fits with the aesthetic and communicates a little of what they're going for just by him being there.

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About Massive Chalice itself - It's pretty slow starting off so far, and kind of repetitive. There's a lot of fog of war, and the monsters don't really seek you out pre-emptively. It makes for a pretty slow pace, and on Normal it doesn't start out very hard at all. I sort of feel like the "high concept, bland execution" criticism someone else gave to the studio seems to fit this title so far. Maybe it gets more interesting after it develops, but they didn't really start on a very compelling foot IMO.
Post edited June 04, 2015 by mothwentbad
Oh come on, you cannot compare the development of a movie with the development of a game. And I have seen the Super Mario clones done in Flash, none of them come close to the clockwork-like precision or the originals. There is a ton of finetuning and balancing the mechanics so everything falls into place nicely.

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deonast: ...
I just told you: because someone had asked about it. Not everyone follows game news and knows about what happened with the Double Fine Kickstarter, so he asked and I answered.
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HiPhish: Oh come on, you cannot compare the development of a movie with the development of a game. And I have seen the Super Mario clones done in Flash, none of them come close to the clockwork-like precision or the originals. There is a ton of finetuning and balancing the mechanics so everything falls into place nicely.

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deonast: ...
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HiPhish: I just told you: because someone had asked about it. Not everyone follows game news and knows about what happened with the Double Fine Kickstarter, so he asked and I answered.
Right you are, I think I was missing a little sleep and missed something there. Yes you are right lots of controversy around the game development and studio, but not necessarily based on the end product.
Post edited June 04, 2015 by deonast
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HiPhish: Since when does GamerGate hate Massive Chalice? Is there a press release from the Leader of GamerGate you can link me to?
The top reviewer on the gamecard looks like an assploded gator.
These days, sadly, it seems DF is better at distracting the public with their superficial social justice crusading than making good games.
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HiPhish: Since when does GamerGate hate Massive Chalice? Is there a press release from the Leader of GamerGate you can link me to?
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Starmaker: The top reviewer on the gamecard looks like an assploded gator.

These days, sadly, it seems DF is better at distracting the public with their superficial social justice crusading than making good games.
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Starmaker:
I've not yet seen anything about this social justice stuff, guess I don't care enough to pay attention, only heard about it from the forums. I'm mainly interested in their game development documentaries. Is that double fine that does the social justice stuff or just their boss Tim. I'm thinking there could be a difference there.
OMG, I bought GRIM FANDANGO REMASTERED during this sales, I am an "anti-gamergate"??? A SJW??? I love Anita Sarkesian so much? OMG I also bought HATRED!!! I am a terrorist? a Pro Gamer-Gate? A mysogin? a Nazi White Trash?

Gaming is becoming ANNOYING with these STUPIDITIES
Post edited June 04, 2015 by YaTEdiGo
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deonast: I've not yet seen anything about this social justice stuff, guess I don't care enough to pay attention, only heard about it from the forums. I'm mainly interested in their game development documentaries. Is that double fine that does the social justice stuff or just their boss Tim. I'm thinking there could be a difference there.
No idea. Their top mod is a turd though, and I'm not giving money to people who employ turds in a PR capacity.
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Starmaker: The top reviewer on the gamecard looks like an assploded gator.
I contacted him and asked him for his GamerGate membership card, but he claims he never heard of anything like that. The regional GamerGate HQ representative also couldn't provide any confirmation on the user's membership. Or do you mean he is an alligator with a swollen cloaca? I'd have to arrange a meeting in person to confirm that, but that will take a while.
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deonast: I've not yet seen anything about this social justice stuff, guess I don't care enough to pay attention, only heard about it from the forums. I'm mainly interested in their game development documentaries. Is that double fine that does the social justice stuff or just their boss Tim. I'm thinking there could be a difference there.
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Starmaker: No idea. Their top mod is a turd though, and I'm not giving money to people who employ turds in a PR capacity.
Had a quick glance through not sure what you are referring to. I see a mod being a bit blunt about what looked like some kickstarter backers complaining that their particular needs /wants weren't met. Though I can understand it since the game is for thousands of people you can't meet the needs of everyone or nothing gets done. So I'm not really seeing it myself. Unless I overlooked something there.