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General discussionRegional Priced Games on GOG(2343 posts)(2343 posts)
(2343 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 06, 2014
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RocketBearGames: I don't really make the choice of which European country gets which price. Honestly, I don't even know how that works, so I'd appreciate if you informed me.

The Euro price is the only one that I was given the option to set by GOG. If they have the ability to split by different European countries, it sounds like it would be fair to do that (If only to factor in different VAT rates).
You'd have to check details with GOG, as there have been releases here that had different prices for non-EU countries, as well as more than one price for different EU countries. As have been on Steam (EUR2 prices are usually lower than EUR1).

I'm just pointing out that the arguments used in favour of the existing regional pricing model are not solid. And I'm giving you the above link as you said that you asked GOG to match Steam's prices. Perhaps you should have done some adjusting on Steam as well.


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moonshineshadow: Y[...]

where the customer is living are where the seller is, which would be gog in cyprus...
For now, the VAT charged is the one where the seller is, but this will change starting next year.



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RocketBearGames: Hmmm, I didn't know that. That certainly seems like a less confusing way to do it. Maybe GOG should include VAT and have a * at the bottom?

* Price includes VAT for YOUR COUNTRY

On the other hand, it'd be super-confusing on the front page.
It already states so in the receipt one receives:
All prices include VAT if applicable.
Posted November 06, 2014
Poking in here too, though I'll just say the same things I said before, and which have largely already been said.

1. Imagine you went to your local supermarket and they asked for ID at the register and determined prices depending on where you lived. But they don't do that, you could even come from another country and they wouldn't care, they charge you what they charge everyone, because it's the exact same product sold by the exact same store. But apparently, if we're talking of a stream of bits sent over a network, the direction they travel in changes the price.

2. The VAT is just an excuse. GOG has their financial services located in Cyprus, as you know, and they pay Cyprus VAT of 19% as a result. As of next year they will pay different VAT depending on the buyer's country if higher (which is an absolutely illogical law, mind you), but no matter what they are paying the 19%, so at the moment it's just an excuse and as of next year it'd only justify an difference of at most a few percent, definitely not 1 USD = 1 EUR or such. Also, EU law states clearly that prices must include VAT, and GOG is an EU company, so prices must include VAT, can't be listed separately.

3. I'll just put this here again. So basically there's little sense or reason to any of it and devs just go along with what Steam says, which you just proved now as well. And you may notice that the VAT barely got a line in those 3 pages, sort of "well, might as well mention this in passing too I guess", but it doesn't justify much of anything.

4. As others have said, "one world, one price" (and the US price at that, not hiking to the EU price as Disney did recently for some newly added games) was a core value of GOG, one of the two clear, specific ones listed since they launched back in 2008. This year they decided to give up on it. That won't fly with the, if I may, core audience that came here for the things that made GOG, well, GOG, different, more than just another shop.
Posted November 06, 2014
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magnusdam: When you insist on adding VAT to the prices GOG has to compensate out of their own pocket (due to their fair price policy) the European costumers for paying a higher price than people in the US. I don't think that is fair to GOG.
It's a business choice that they've made to try to compete with Steam. I think that it's quite generous of them, but at the same time nobody forces them to do this.
Posted November 06, 2014
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moonshineshadow: Y[...]

where the customer is living are where the seller is, which would be gog in cyprus...
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HypersomniacLive: For now, the VAT charged is the one where the seller is, but this will change starting next year.
So next year it will be based on where the buyer is located? That would be one of the few times where it is good to be in Swiss... since normally everything here is quite expensive but the VAT would then be only 8%
:D
Post edited November 06, 2014 by moonshineshadow
Posted November 06, 2014
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HypersomniacLive: For now, the VAT charged is the one where the seller is, but this will change starting next year.
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moonshineshadow: So next year it will be based on where the buyer is located? That would be one of the few times where it is good to be in Swiss... since normally everything here is quite expensive but the VAT would then be only 8%
:D
Don't count on Steam, Gog or any other digital game seller/publisher to regard the VAT in their discriminating pricing system, they never did, just a bunch of excuses to charge more money where you hope to be able to get more.
In reality, the current regional pricing system has nothing to do with VAT, minimum wage or even average income.
Post edited November 06, 2014 by Klumpen0815
Posted November 06, 2014
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Cavalary: 2. The VAT is just an excuse. GOG has their financial services located in Cyprus, as you know, and they pay Cyprus VAT of 19% as a result. As of next year they will pay different VAT depending on the buyer's country if higher (which is an absolutely illogical law, mind you), but no matter what they are paying the 19%, so at the moment it's just an excuse and as of next year it'd only justify an difference of at most a few percent, definitely not 1 USD = 1 EUR or such. Also, EU law states clearly that prices must include VAT, and GOG is an EU company, so prices must include VAT, can't be listed separately.
VAT is the only reason I didn't go with GOG's default pricing policy. If VAT suddenly disappeared tomorrow, I'd switch to the non-regional price. I'd also support a way to have everyone pay VAT that's relevant to their country.

I didn't know about the seller-buyer distinction. As you say, though, in 2 months it's about to change to buyer's location. Maybe this is an issue you should take up with your government and why they decide to tax purchases made in another country.
Post edited November 06, 2014 by RocketBearGames
Posted November 06, 2014
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moonshineshadow: So next year it will be based on where the buyer is located? That would be one of the few times where it is good to be in Swiss... since normally everything here is quite expensive but the VAT would then be only 8%
:D
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Klumpen0815: Don't count on Steam, Gog or any other digital game seller/publisher to regard the VAT in their discriminating pricing system, they never did, just a bunch of excuses to charge more money where you hope to be able to get more.
In reality, the current regional pricing system has nothing to do with VAT, minimum wage or even average income.
Heh don't destroy my almost nonexistent hope that I might get something good out of that change :D
And like I already said in one of my posts above, you are completly right that normally the regional pricing scheme has nothing to do with the taxes.
Post edited November 06, 2014 by moonshineshadow
Posted November 06, 2014
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Klumpen0815: Don't count on Steam, Gog or any other digital game seller/publisher to regard the VAT in their discriminating pricing system, they never did, just a bunch of excuses to charge more money where you hope to be able to get more.
In reality, the current regional pricing system has nothing to do with VAT, minimum wage or even average income.
I can't speak for anyone else, just myself - a tiny one-person indie shop.

I don't expect to make any money on the price difference. In Russia, I would actually make less money, because the price is less. The price in the EU seems a bit more than it should be, but it's less than it should be in UK and AUS.
Posted November 06, 2014
bleh2

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Klumpen0815: Don't count on Steam, Gog or any other digital game seller/publisher to regard the VAT in their discriminating pricing system, they never did, just a bunch of excuses to charge more money where you hope to be able to get more.
In reality, the current regional pricing system has nothing to do with VAT, minimum wage or even average income.
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RocketBearGames: I can't speak for anyone else, just myself - a tiny one-person indie shop.

I don't expect to make any money on the price difference. In Russia, I would actually make less money, because the price is less. The price in the EU seems a bit more than it should be, but it's less than it should be in UK and AUS.
I believe you don't but there's just tons of companies that do. Gog not though they pay the difference out of their pocket.
Although the store credit is a liability and as such probably tax deductible.
But then again phone companies don't like having prepaid credit lying around either lol
Post edited November 06, 2014 by Reaper9988
Posted November 06, 2014
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RocketBearGames: I didn't know about the seller-buyer distinction. As you say, though, in 2 months it's about to change to buyer's location. Maybe this is an issue you should take up with your government and why they decide to tax purchases made in another country.
Just a reminder: It's not January 2015 and if regional pricing on GoG would have something to do with VAT, it would have come in 01/2015, but it's here for a while now and VAT is not existent as an excuse yet.
Post edited November 06, 2014 by Klumpen0815
Posted November 06, 2014
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IAmSinistar: Most of us would accept a fair regional pricing scheme, but so far we've not seen one. So the general consensus is that publishers push regional pricing because it equals free money. And when we see a developer like yourself who is also the publisher follow that route, it gives many of us an unfavourable opinion of you. You may think you're just following the market normatives, but to those of us who have investigated the issue, it more often comes across as simple greed.
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RocketBearGames: Let's look at the Infested Planet price on GOG. This is what I sent GOG when they asked me for prices:

North America + ROTW (USD): 14.99
UK (GBP): 10.99
Europe 1 (EUR): 14.99
Australia+New Zealand (AUD): 16.99
Russia+CIS (RUB): 349.00

Ok, what if we just took the US price and converted it to the currencies. I also added VAT to UK and Europe:

North America + ROTW (USD): 14.99
UK (GBP) + 20% VAT: 11.32
Europe 1 (EUR) + 20% VAT: 14.47
Australia+New Zealand (AUD): 17.46
Russia+CIS (RUB): 695.78

I did the currency conversion via Google.
Does this look unfair to you? The only one that stands out to me is Russia, which is getting a really good deal.
Right at the moment it doesn't look that bad (even if we still have to pay more than US price + VAT). But that's mostly, because the Euro is very low at the moment. About three months ago 1 Dollar = 1 Euro (the regional pricing most publishers use) meant that many Europeans had to pay about 40% more.

Besides that I can't understand the low price that Russia always gets. People in Moscow earn nearly the same as people in Western Europe. Sure there are other parts of the country that aren't that rich, but we have the same situation in many other countries too. People in Eastern Germany still earn about 20-30% less than people in Western Germany. And what about the poor countries in the EU? Romania and Bulgaria for example are very poor (I guess the average income is lower than in Russia) and yet they have to pay the highest prices worldwide many times (except for Australia who often have to pay even more). What about poor countries in Africa and Asia?

US-price + VAT would be more or less fair, but the way regional pricing is done at the moment will never be fair. Developers and puplishers just assume that you are rich or poor, because of your location and it seems that they don't have in mind that there are heavy differences within countries or currency zones as well. There are rich and poor people everywhere and if you are a poor person in a "rich country", you are completely screwed by regional pricing at the moment.

There are many games that I would've bought day one, but with regional pricing I will wait for a massive discount or for a bundle where I can buy them dirt cheap. I will never support regional pricing (at least not the way it is done at the moment).
Posted November 06, 2014
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RocketBearGames: VAT is the only reason I didn't go with GOG's default pricing policy. If VAT suddenly disappeared tomorrow, I'd switch to the non-regional price. I'd also support a way to have everyone pay VAT that's relevant to their country.

I didn't know about the seller-buyer distinction. As you say, though, in 2 months it's about to change to buyer's location. Maybe this is an issue you should take up with your government and why they decide to tax purchases made in another country.
But isn't the way this works that you essentially sell each copy of the game to GOG for 70% (if it's the standard deal) of the price they sell it to the customer? In that case, GOG is an EU company, so if you're going to pay VAT because you, as a non-EU company, sell to an EU client, you'll pay it for every single GOG sale. The difference is on GOG's part, as their clients are all over the world. (And in fact there currently is no difference for them either, it will be as of next year, of up to a few percent.)

And VAT existed in the EU between 2008 and this year as well, and it didn't phase them...
Posted November 06, 2014
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PaterAlf: Right at the moment it doesn't look that bad (even if we still have to pay more than US price + VAT). But that's mostly, because the Euro is very low at the moment. About three months ago 1 Dollar = 1 Euro (the regional pricing most publishers use) meant that many Europeans had to pay about 40% more.

Besides that I can't understand the low price that Russia always gets. People in Moscow earn nearly the same as people in Western Europe. Sure there are other parts of the country that aren't that rich, but we have the same situation in many other countries too. People in Eastern Germany still earn about 20-30% less than people in Western Germany. And what about the poor countries in the EU? Romania and Bulgaria for example are very poor (I guess the average income is lower than in Russia) and yet they have to pay the highest prices worldwide many times (except for Australia who often have to pay even more). What about poor countries in Africa and Asia?

US-price + VAT would be more or less fair, but the way regional pricing is done at the moment will never be fair. Developers and puplishers just assume that you are rich or poor, because of your location and it seems that they don't have in mind that there are heavy differences within countries or currency zones as well. There are rich and poor people everywhere and if you are a poor person in a "rich country", you are completely screwed by regional pricing at the moment.

There are many games that I would've bought day one, but with regional pricing I will wait for a massive discount or for a bundle where I can buy them dirt cheap. I will never support regional pricing (at least not the way it is done at the moment).
I think that you sum up the situation pretty well.

It seems like whatever pricing you choose, someone will get treated unfairly by it. Flat US prices are unfair to people in non-Western countries. Even a lower RU price is unfair to people in different parts of Russia.

I don't really have a good answer that's fair to everyone. I was born in Ukraine, myself. I remember mid-90s when inflation was so bad that 1 USD = 2,000,000 Ukranian coupons. You could buy an apartment for a couple thousand dollars. Asking someone to pay $60 for a copy of Call of Duty would be rather insane in a country like that.
Posted November 06, 2014
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Klumpen0815: Don't count on Steam, Gog or any other digital game seller/publisher to regard the VAT in their discriminating pricing system, they never did, just a bunch of excuses to charge more money where you hope to be able to get more.
In reality, the current regional pricing system has nothing to do with VAT, minimum wage or even average income.
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RocketBearGames: I can't speak for anyone else, just myself - a tiny one-person indie shop.

I don't expect to make any money on the price difference. In Russia, I would actually make less money, because the price is less. The price in the EU seems a bit more than it should be, but it's less than it should be in UK and AUS.
Hmm I just actually now looked at your game heh.
Tell you what I just jumped my shadow and bought wasteland2(been debating that for about a month now) and since your game does look really interesting I'll jump my shadow one more time and buy it too lol
Posted November 06, 2014
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Cavalary: But isn't the way this works that you essentially sell each copy of the game to GOG for 70% (if it's the standard deal) of the price they sell it to the customer? In that case, GOG is an EU company, so if you're going to pay VAT because you, as a non-EU company, sell to an EU client, you'll pay it for every single GOG sale. The difference is on GOG's part, as their clients are all over the world. (And in fact there currently is no difference for them either, it will be as of next year, of up to a few percent.)

And VAT existed in the EU between 2008 and this year as well, and it didn't phase them...
I wish I knew more about how VAT works. I don't actually have much more info than you do.

All I know is that GOG are the ones who pay VAT to the government (however it's calculated). Then they subtract VAT from what the game paid, take their % and send the rest to me.

That's the theory anyway. I've never actually been paid by GOG yet.
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Reaper9988: Hmm I just actually now looked at your game heh.
Tell you what I just jumped my shadow and bought wasteland2(been debating that for about a month now) and since your game does look really interesting I'll jump my shadow one more time and buy it too lol
Thank you! I hope that you enjoy it.

If you have feedback, you can send it to alexvostrov@rocketbeargames.com (that's me :).
Post edited November 06, 2014 by RocketBearGames
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionRegional Priced Games on GOG(2343 posts)(2343 posts)
(2343 posts)