How did the video undermine my point? The Muslims involved in the grooming gangs see western women as 'slags' who deserve to get gang raped because they don't cover themselves up. Does this mean I believe all Muslims think that? No... it doesn't. It means I think we shouldn't be letting anyone who wants to come over do so because open borders. I see western values as a positive and I think its a bad idea to erode them over time by allowing masses who don't agree with our values come over.

As much as your opinion on the issue says about you.

Undermined... do you mean UNDERLINED?

The person who posted that video is a liberal. He hates the alt-right and they hate him. At best he could be described as 'islamophobic', a term coined by a terrorist if I'm remembering right. What exactly is the issue with being 'islamophobic' if Islam is loaded with anti-western values especially concerning women and homosexual human rights?

You talk about this as if its propaganda. Have you or have you not heard about the Telford Grooming scandal? Do you believe that to be a made up story? I wouldn't be surprised if some of these stories are made up by certain individuals... that does not mean the concern is not valid.

So... fuck your pity AND your ignorance.

EDIT: Yeah, 'islamophobia' originates from Iranian fundamentalists. It means as much to me as 'Christianophobia'.

Never said he was an alt-right supporter or anything. Simply stated that he was rambling about his xenophobic views and citing questionable sources as "absolute proof" with no further evidence attached. Stating that you have liberal views does not excuse you if you make xenophobic comments.

You're not. The english word goes back all the way to 1923, a time in which islamistic terrorists didn't even exist in the form we know today. Maybe it was used by terrorists, but that's like saying the word "imperialist" was coined by a nazi/terrorist/communist/etc.
It just makes you look very biased.


That's actually very generalizing and VERY discriminating against muslims in general. I know more than enough muslims that don't have these kind of opinions that you accuse them of having.

Wait wait what? But you JUST generalized the whole Muslim-community in your statement and now you say we can't generalize when it comes to views you share? Grow up.
If some of these stores were made up, it may not de-value the whole topic, but it does muddy down the water.

And I'm not gonna quote your last phrase their, that just shows me that you have run out of arguments and switched to insults

He is talking about a real scandal. What 'evidence' are you looking for? There is currently a large number of 'grooming gang' scandals in Britain. Its not some 'xenophobic' story made up for views and clicks.

I'm not what?

As for the term 'islamophobia' what I've read about it suggests it originates in the 70s and saw various forms of resurgence over time.

Pretty ironic for you to speak of 'generalizing'. Also... my 'generalizing' comes from POLLS answered by Muslims and the overwhelming majority show concerning issues with integrating with western society. Every Muslim who does is great news... that doesn't mean, especially based on statistics, that concern over them NOT integrating isn't valid.

So false stories muddy the water but concerning statistics on beliefs and certain criminal activities do not. Speaking of growing up...

Because 'pitying' me isn't insulting. I'm attempting to give you and your ignorant opinions some respect... but that goes both ways and it has been clear from these conversations that many people can't keep their bias and emotions out of the discussion. If you want respect then please show it and I'll do my best to return it in kind.

EDIT: Speaking of quoting myself... oops, going back to fix my misquoting...

Sorry but it is in fact older. Like i said, it goes all the way back to the 1920's. Even wikipedia says that (you can follow the sources that wikipedia has to see for yourself)

Again with the "you too-counter"

Well the POLLS i saw stated the exact opposite of what you claim. Maybe it's a country-thing?
Atleast here the majority of muslims accepts western culture and western law and they do not want things to change (kinda why they moved here). Could you maybe link me those polls. Would be cool if it wouldn't be a media site affiliated with the extreme Right or Left.

Like I said, show me the polls. And to quote your president: "Not the fake polls! The real polls!"

I'm sorry if me pitying you has somehow hurt or insulted you in any way, that was not my intention.
However you call me ignorant now, i never stepped to that level of insults and clearly respected your views. I simply wanted more proof than links to youtube videos where people express questionable beliefes and citing questionable media outlets with ongoing investigations that have yet to be concluded.
Like you said, it has to go both ways. You call me ignorant yet i have shown more then once the ability to listen to other opinions. If i was truly ignorant, i would have said something about your MAGA-Profile picture, denunced you as a Trump-Troll or "Russian-Bot" or something like that and i would simply stop talking to you. Ignoring you would be ignorant..

You can't generalize ENTIRE Religions. If your polls show up and prove your point, than you still have other european muslim-communities that don't fit into that picture. I have severall polls here that show that only about 0,5-1,0% of muslims here would ever hold religon above german culture and educational advice. In addition, the numbers of muslims who value religion over state laws are diminishingly small. I'm going to link some of those polls here but unless you speak german you won't be able to see my point.

http://www.deutsche-islam-konferenz.de/SharedDocs/Bilder/DIK/DE/Bilderpool/tabelle_schwimmen.bmp;jsessionid=B98205C53EF04DB6E5B3A69FF3D5FC5E.2_cid286?__blob=poster&v=1


So yeah, we can both be "not-ignorant" now and continue the debate in a respectful way. You want to protect your borders and in my opinion you have every right to do so. But generalizing entire Religions won't help. Unless you can back it all up with hard evidence.

You seem more interested in dissecting the commentator, rather than the story he's commenting on, which calls into question your own credibility, no?

That's actually what you're doing right now and very close to what-aboutism and won't bring us further in this discussion.
Had you actually read the whole thing, including GDM's answers, you would've known that by now, we are at the "showing polls to proof our point" part.

The link does not lead anywhere. Either way 'Islamophobia' has become a popular term fundamentalists use and I give it as much credence as a words like 'religionophobia' or 'Christianophobia'. Its a word used to shut down religious criticism. Who is the liberal here? Anyway I'll give you this point despite being unable to find any links showing the 1923 usage.

If you're going to generalize someone and then get angry about supposed generalization...

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/

"Even more troubling, is the fact that nearly a quarter of the Muslims polled believed that, “It is legitimate to use violence to punish those who give offense to Islam by, for example, portraying the prophet Mohammed.” "

"Nearly one-fifth of Muslim respondents said that the use of violence in the United States is justified in order to make shariah the law of the land in this country."

Do you have a link to polls of your own that might show a more positive view of Muslims in European countries? Preferably ones not affiliated with extremist views.

See above.

Likewise for me saying fuck your pity and ignorance.

Ignorance is not an insult. We're all ignorant of things in life continually striving for enlightenment. If you have facts, and not anecdotal evidence I'm more than willing to hear it. Er... read it. You know what I mean.

You don't know that person and you immediately labelled them as being xenophobic for talking about a news story.

Have you now? So you are open to the possibility that Islam may have some problematic teachings that followers might bring to western countries?

As ignorant as dismissing me as being worthy of pity.

I'm not generalizing entire religions. I'm pointing out that the religion has problematic teachings and it might MAYBE behoove us to be more scrupulous about WHO is coming in!

EDIT: Can you believe this forum once was about the death penalty?

Sure you can, unless you're referring to universal generalizations. But what exactly is the point of defending religion in any way, shape, or form, when it is fundamentally opposed to critical thinking?

Because the criticism of Islam has been wrongly, but effectively, tied to race.

TRUE liberals are the only ones (on the left) with the balls to be critical of Islam these days.

As much as I disagree with Bill Maher I've great respect for him sticking to his principles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

^ Speaking of statistics Sam Harris brings up many troubling ones as well like "78% of British Muslims believed the Danish Cartoonist should have been prosecuted". Western values there.

No, you started down this path with your characterizations of the commentator and GDM, made in lieu of discussing the serial abuse of British women and children, which is documented fact.

Open borders is a large issue with far more factors than I imagine the average person can discuss with any kind of insight (which includes me). Even ignoring the issues that the common joe worries about, with extra strain on gvmt programs, jobs, and pay, there are national issues such as spies, terrorists, disease carriers and others coming in without being checked. Further, there are contraband items that they can bring in: food, flora and fauna that can cause great damage to our environment.

Then there's the issue of living space, as the human pop is exploding all over the world. I think few people know that the planet didn't reach 1B pop until 1800, and in just two centuries we've gone to over 7B, closing on 8. I have nothing agaisnt people just trying to get a better life, but at the same time I support countries being able to say "no" to immigrants.

I linked them in the post above, but i don't suppose you speak german. I'll let you know if i find an English version of it.
France should have similiar polls (that's just an educated guest after spending 4 years studying pol-science there)

Thank you for showing me those polls, they do seem to paint a quite drastic picture.
I hate to ask but:
Do you have a second site with that poll or a similiar one? CSP just isn't exactly liberal.
According to Wikipedia:
CSP is a far-right think tank and therefore somewhat biased in this.
Some Lawyers in the US even claimed it was a "hate-group"...though I don't know if that defintion is somehow meaningful without further proof.
Here you go:

[url=
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Security_Policy]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Security_Policy[/url]

That's a very sound point and we can both agree on that.

Yes, I never said there won't be any problems. Like i said a few posts earlier, there have been some cases of religiously-motivated crimes including the murder of a 14-year old girl, so yeah. Some of those people do have very questionably views on life and religion and should be "thrown the book" as they say. And yes, you won't find these crimes with a "jewish motivation". (of course you find other crimes with other religions, but i think we can both agree that all religions have shown to bea able to create extremists.)

Okay then we might have somehow misinterpreted each others words.
Problematic is a very good word here. In the end, interpretation is what matters. There are always some who take every word for granted and think it gives them the right to do certain things and these people are very likely not combatible with liberal western ideologies and reacting to them is not xenophobic.

Yeah though it was bound to go sideways. From one trigger-topic to the next.
But I'm glad we sorted this out somehow and could accept that, while we might come from different corners of the poltical ideology system, we can still be able to use rational thinking and show that the age of enlightenment has reached even the dephts of a video-game-related forum which memers have most likely more "developed" political views then the average citizen you meet on the street.