It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Aaaaah yes yes yes, yes. THEY love this so much (them). The old self-evident "natural vs artificial" diffusionism. The lovely varnish upon "get off my lawn". Yes, this, that and that, they belonged to The Grand Natural Order Of Things, but thhhis, thhhose people there ? They are unnatural. OUT WITH THEM, and the barbaric music and food and skin tone they artificially impose upon us.

I had lovely conversations with greek ethnicists about that. Nationalist fanatics that scream at each sign of "eastern influence" while consuming mostly american music (traditional music is so left-wing) and gloriously shaping their society after western models of economy and nuclear families. Same rationalisation : "What I prefer, when it's foreign, is just natural evolution, but if my neighbour adopts dirty elements from countries I dislike, it's just alien stuff forced upon us."

What makes it fascinating is that absolutely every epoch is made of that. Whining about external influences, that later become part of the culture (and part of what is defended as either intemporal or "naturally occuring") as opposed to the alien filth brought by the current migrants. Even stuff imposed by the most straightforward, brutal, murderous colonial invasions (language, religion, etc) becomes later "our sacred culture" that we must preserve against newcomers. Just like the past generation of migrants were "Okay people after all, see, they integrated themselves" while "Those from THESE countries now ? They'll never adapt, they're too different and numerous, and they're all criminals anyway". Until the next wave from another country, that shoves the former one into normality and becomes the new apocalyptic threat upon Our True Cultural Identity. And the new scapegoat, or target for ethnic cleansing fantasies (when not policies).

In a way, this should be a relief for everyone, on all sides. The same arguments, the same events, the same discourses, reactions, polemics, and tensions, are happening perpetually, with variations in violences. Short-sightedness never prevented anything, just made it all more tense, and just perpetually grinds one identity under the weight of "self-defense" xenophobia before forgetting about it and switching to the next one. And no lesson is ever learnt.

And then, of course, is the whole legalist circular rationalization. Migrations happen, through much stronger forces (economic differentials, workforce needs, geopolitical tragedies, human relations, etc) than local policies. They happen, and, by definition, always too much (that is, too much right now) for the traditionalist nationalists. So, laws and policies adapt, fluctuate, change back and forth, depending on governments in place, populism, pragmatism, opportunism, dominant ideologies, etc. And these laws arbitrarily define who is a legit migrant or a criminal (what "illegal" implies), proving, by definition, that the (currently) illegal ones are illegals and therefore shouldn't be here. The following day, or the day before, the same undocumented migrants could be legalized, but hey, as long as they are criminalized for the time being, it's the proof that they deserve it. Half of the time, the capricious fluctuation of the law becomes all the validation that is required ("the State said so, who are you to question it"). The other half of the time, it's a big scandal ("the State is so corrupt, vote or march to change its treacherous laws"). Again, the double standards of rationalizations.

But yeah, another lovely thing is that it's universal. Indeed not a black vs white thing. African countries show the same racism and xenophobia between each others, the same stigmatizations of the neighbour's refugees, and the same ethnic nationalisms - which makes it all the funnier when a black migrant in Europe just wears the stigma of globally being from that whole continent. And the "alien intruders" whose "culture are destroying ours" can also be white in Europe (racist attitudes also happen/ed versus italians, portugueses, poles, all allegedly "impossible to integrate" depending on the moment's populist trend), and I'm not even talking about "the Jew" in the 19th and 20th century. Or protestants, catholics, etc.

Let's just enjoy the noise. It's like the foam on the waves, an ever repeated epiphenomenon of perpetual movements. Each time renewed by our short memory span. Humans are ridiculous, including in the reasons they find to tear each others apart. But hey, a lawn is a lawn, and that's what it comes down to.
low rated
avatar
Telika: Aaaaah yes yes yes, yes. THEY love this so much (them). The old self-evident "natural vs artificial" diffusionism. The lovely varnish upon "get off my lawn". Yes, this, that and that, they belonged to The Grand Natural Order Of Things, but thhhis, thhhose people there ? They are unnatural. OUT WITH THEM, and the barbaric music and food and skin tone they artificially impose upon us.

-snip-
Yeah... no reason to be worried about external cultures... or religions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hpnzak0-YQ&t=0s
avatar
GreasyDogMeat: Yeah... no reason to be worried about external cultures... or religions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hpnzak0-YQ&t=0s
Yes of course. There are also the reports about Germany (and Europe) turning into a fundamentalist islamic republic, due to all the masses of exiles, fleeing ISIS, who are only looking forward to establish its caliphate here too.

I know. Youtube showed me everything about the collapsed, oppressed, european population, and Facebook even had a meme about it. Also, there was that foaming muslim dude who was clearly a radical. I expelled 250'000 other refugees back to Syria just to be safe from him.
avatar
Telika: Yes of course. There are also the reports about Germany (and Europe) turning into a fundamentalist islamic republic, due to all the masses of exiles, fleeing ISIS, who are only looking forward to establish its caliphate here too.

I know. Youtube showed me everything about the collapsed, oppressed, european population, and Facebook even had a meme about it. Also, there was that foaming muslim dude who was clearly a radical. I expelled 250'000 other refugees back to Syria just to be safe from him.
Yeah its all propaganda right? Nothing to worry about... move along folks. The cultures will just combine and be worried about some other external threat in the future.
avatar
Telika: Even if you jump out of the "you vs them", you'll see -maybe all the more clearly- that it stays "them vs them". For all the reasons above. The reinforcing circles are part of it, and analysing their mechanisms doesn't show how to break them (on the opposite it shows how solid, how entrenched in the human cognitive abilities, they are). But even if you analyse them, you become an "us" to "them".
We're entering in an interesting illustration of this, actually. If you exit the questionnable "muslim vs christians" (them vs us) opposition, by shattering the related representations and self-representations (by showing how inhomogeneous these categories are, specifically by showing that islamism is mostly a muslim vs muslim war, pitting muslim ultraconservatives versus muslim progressives and other muslims that they consider not fanatical enough), then you don't simply become an independant individual. You end up in a group, in another "them vs us", defined precisely by your reluctance to endorse that opposition. You become, well, some sort of "idealist progressive" or whatnot, facing a strange coalition of muslim and christians "conservatives" (who are paradoxically united by their agreement upon some essentialist antagonism, and both agreeing to define islam by ISIS' terms).

So, no escape. We always end up embedded (from outside or from inside) in such "sides"...
Did you just reply to yourself? XD

Far out.
Post edited March 19, 2018 by tinyE
avatar
Telika: We're entering in an interesting illustration of this, actually. If you exit the questionnable "muslim vs christians" (them vs us) opposition, by shattering the related representations and self-representations (by showing how inhomogeneous these categories are, specifically by showing that islamism is mostly a muslim vs muslim war, pitting muslim ultraconservatives versus muslim progressives and other muslims that they consider not fanatical enough), then you don't simply become an independant individual. You end up in a group, in another "them vs us", defined precisely by your reluctance to endorse that opposition. You become, well, some sort of "idealist progressive" or whatnot, facing a strange coalition of muslim and christians "conservatives" (who are paradoxically united by their agreement upon some essentialist antagonism, and both agreeing to define islam by ISIS' terms).

So, no escape. We always end up embedded (from outside or from inside) in such "sides"...
I'm not interested in viewing this as a Christian vs. Muslim or in any sort of race vs race issue. What it is is an issue of values. Even moderate Islam has clashes with western liberalism. Why exactly do we want to invite MORE fundamentalism into western countries when we already have an issue with our own? When polled the majority of Muslims are giving answers that go AGAINST our values... so... 'moderates'? The insanity isn't being worried about this conflict of cultures/values, the insanity is not making sure our immigrants are going to share our values. Its inviting the snake into the nest.

avatar
tinyE: Not a bad idea. You're much more likely to get a strait rational answer from yourself than from mr maga up there. XD
Do you have anything of value to add or are you just a 300 lb. blob of constant smarm?
avatar
tinyE: Not a bad idea. You're much more likely to get a strait rational answer from yourself than from mr maga up there. XD
avatar
GreasyDogMeat: Do you have anything of value to add or are you just a 300 lb. blob of constant smarm?
I weight 140.
avatar
tinyE: I weight 140.
I'm glad your smarm diet is working.
avatar
tinyE: I weight 140.
avatar
GreasyDogMeat: I'm glad your smarm diet is working.
That's actually about five pounds heavier than normal and fifteen above where I was ten years ago.
avatar
tinyE: That's actually about five pounds heavier than normal and fifteen above where I was ten years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hR5YNqE3K8
avatar
Excellent proof that normal is stupid.
Post edited March 19, 2018 by Mafwek
avatar
GreasyDogMeat: Even moderate Islam has clashes with western liberalism
That's the problem, it misses the point to pretend only those ISIS headchoppers (who are indeed widely hated even in the Islamic world) are problematic.
Had a discussion online some time ago with a Pakistani-Muslim American...who seemed "moderate" at first (is some kind of Sufi, rejects Wahhabism, wrote that he loves America and baseball...and probably he does)...but even that guy eventually came up with some gems that kind of shocked me:
- women need to cover up themselves with hijab and the like, otherwise they might attract rapists.
- he also would like to have laws prohibiting Muslim women from marrying non-Muslims...the desire to control "their" women was pretty obvious (note: by his own account this guy had married a Swedish woman who had converted to Islam).
- when I asked him about the laws punishing "blasphemy", "apostasy" in Islamic countries like Pakistan, he defended them...though personally he wasn't in favour of the death penalty, flogging and eventually exile are sufficient after all...
Asked if such laws would be introduced if America or Europe became Islamic (which he clearly hoped for/regarded as inevitable...he was thrilled by reports about Westerners converting to Islam), he was evasive, saying he couldn't know that, Islam might be established in a different way in the West...but in his opinion there wouldn't be a problem anyway...why would one want to blaspheme against Allah?
That guy is not going to commit a terror attack, and probably he's a helpful neighbor...but still, does one want people with such views immigrate en masse until they become a political force? Conflict would seem to be predetermined.
avatar
morolf: That's the problem, it misses the point to pretend only those ISIS headchoppers (who are indeed widely hated even in the Islamic world) are problematic.
Had a discussion online some time ago with a Pakistani-Muslim American...who seemed "moderate" at first (is some kind of Sufi, rejects Wahhabism, wrote that he loves America and baseball...and probably he does)...but even that guy eventually came up with some gems that kind of shocked me:
- women need to cover up themselves with hijab and the like, otherwise they might attract rapists.
- he also would like to have laws prohibiting Muslim women from marrying non-Muslims...the desire to control "their" women was pretty obvious (note: by his own account this guy had married a Swedish woman who had converted to Islam).
- when I asked him about the laws punishing "blasphemy", "apostasy" in Islamic countries like Pakistan, he defended them...though personally he wasn't in favour of the death penalty, flogging and eventually exile are sufficient after all...
Asked if such laws would be introduced if America or Europe became Islamic (which he clearly hoped for/regarded as inevitable...he was thrilled by reports about Westerners converting to Islam), he was evasive, saying he couldn't know that, Islam might be established in a different way in the West...but in his opinion there wouldn't be a problem anyway...why would one want to blaspheme against Allah?
That guy is not going to commit a terror attack, and probably he's a helpful neighbor...but still, does one want people with such views immigrate en masse until they become a political force? Conflict would seem to be predetermined.
Exactly. This is also why I hate the alt-right. They don't want people here due to skin color and it confuses the issue and gives the 'open borders' crowd ammunition. "Oh you're just a racist!". Its not about race. I don't care what skin color a person is if they share the values of my country.
avatar
GreasyDogMeat: Exactly. This is also why I hate the alt-right. They don't want people here due to skin color and it confuses the issue and gives the 'open borders' crowd ammunition. "Oh you're just a racist!". Its not about race. I don't care what skin color a person is if they share the values of my country.
Alt-right seems to be pretty much over anyway...someone like Richard Spencer is almost a caricature, totally toxic with his will to power nonsense.
Personally I think ethnicity/race does matter to some extent as well...though maybe less so in the US with its traditional melting pot ideology, strong political ideology with the constitution etc. But one can disagree about those issues. What one can't really disagree about anymore imo (unless one is in complete denial about reality) is that Islam, at least in its mainstream Sunni variant as it is actually lived today, is inherently problematic and hardly compatible with Western democratic societies.