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Hm, kinda Interesting... according to the calculator my PC needs about 680W on max load. My 2012 Mac Pro (which it succeeded this year) needs about 500W on max load. The PC is more than 5 times faster though, so for heavier workloads the energy saving is quite substantial.
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Abishia: it's considered cheap, prices are around 0.39 cents to 0.75 cents per KWH.
depending on contract duration and when you sign the contract.
(I presume you mean 39 to 75 cents.)

Any idea why it is (from my perspective) that high, and was it like that e.g. in 2021 and before (before certain incident(s) in Europe made the price of energy soar)? Is your electricity produced mostly with natural gas or something?

If we had such electricity prices, I definitely wouldn't have bought an electric car (because driving it wouldn't then be any cheaper than with my old gasoline car; gasoline costs approximately 2€/liter here which is very high in itself; for Americans, that means around $8 per gallon), and I would probably do most of my computing on low-power Rasperry Pi4 and Android tablets, lol.

Mind you, prices of electricity did soar here too during the latter half of 2022, sometimes fluctuating between e.g. 30-90 cents per kWh, but did luckily come down a lot from the beginning of 2023, and have stayed quite low besides some occasional peaks due to repairs of Swedish-Finnish power lines, or a maintenance outage of some nuclear power plant, accompanied by calm weathers so there hasn't been abundance of wind energy either to lower the prices... For instance today, when it is quite cold (-5 C degrees) and not much of wind power, the spot price fluctuates by hour between 2,6 - 8 cents per kWh (plus taxes).

On windy days, the untaxed price of electricity can go close to zero, due to abundance of wind power. On calm weather it is generally higher.
Post edited October 29, 2023 by timppu
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Abishia: it's considered cheap, prices are around 0.39 cents to 0.75 cents per KWH.
depending on contract duration and when you sign the contract.
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timppu: (I presume you mean 39 to 75 cents.)

Any idea why it is (from my perspective) that high, and was it like that e.g. in 2021 and before (before certain incident(s) in Europe made the price of energy soar)? Is your electricity produced mostly with natural gas or something?

If we had such electricity prices, I definitely wouldn't have bought an electric car (because driving it wouldn't then be any cheaper than with my old gasoline car; gasoline costs approximately 2€/liter here which is very high in itself; for Americans, that means around $8 per gallon), and I would probably do most of my computing on low-power Rasperry Pi4 and Android tablets, lol.

Mind you, prices of electricity did soar here too during the latter half of 2022, sometimes fluctuating between e.g. 30-90 cents per kWh, but did luckily come down a lot from the beginning of 2023, and have stayed quite low besides some occasional peaks due to repairs of Swedish-Finnish power lines, or a maintenance outage of some nuclear power plant, accompanied by calm weathers so there hasn't been abundance of wind energy either to lower the prices... For instance today, when it is quite cold (-5 C degrees) and not much of wind power, the spot price fluctuates by hour between 2,6 - 8 cents per kWh (plus taxes).

On windy days, the untaxed price of electricity can go close to zero, due to abundance of wind power. On calm weather it is generally higher.
THIS IS NETHERLANDS, kick with tax.
nah on serious note i think 50% is tax on energy bill

o yea we blame anything on Ukraine it's like Ukraine is center of the universe anything get produced their made and destributed......
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Abishia: o yea we blame anything on Ukraine it's like Ukraine is center of the universe anything get produced their made and destributed......
That was said to be one of the main reasons why the price of electricity soared also here last year. Mainly e.g.:

1. The delivery of cheap gas from Russia to Europe diminished to halt, increasing the price of electricity due to the way electricity is priced on the European market, ie. based on the most expensive production method, in this case gas. That is why the price of all electricity soared even here, even though we use relatively little amounts of gas for energy, especially electricity.

2. For Finland specifically, we used to buy part of our electricity directly from Russia (usually in winter if we didn't get enough power from our own power plants or Swden and Norway).

There were some other reasons too that affected the price here in 2022, like the newest nuclear reactor that was being built to Olkiluoto, was being delayed and delayed over and over again. Probably some other reasons too like hiccups or downtimes in the power cables between Sweden and Finland, soe older nuclear power plants had prolonged maintenance periods etc.


Anyway, my question still is: did you have such high prices already in e.g. 2021 and earlier? How much did electricity cost back then there?
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timppu: Anyway, my question still is: did you have such high prices already in e.g. 2021 and earlier? How much did electricity cost back then there?
Actually the delivery costs for both gas and electricity seen a huge rise starting mid of 2021

article : https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/longread/rapportages/2022/de-energierekening-in-januari-2022-hogere-leveringstarieven-en-lagere-belastingen/3-de-ontwikkeling-van-de-prijs-van-energie

see attachment
Attachments:
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Abishia: it's considered cheap, prices are around 0.39 cents to 0.75 cents per KWH.
depending on contract duration and when you sign the contract.
avatar
timppu: (I presume you mean 39 to 75 cents.)

Any idea why it is (from my perspective) that high, and was it like that e.g. in 2021 and before (before certain incident(s) in Europe made the price of energy soar)? Is your electricity produced mostly with natural gas or something?

If we had such electricity prices, I definitely wouldn't have bought an electric car (because driving it wouldn't then be any cheaper than with my old gasoline car; gasoline costs approximately 2€/liter here which is very high in itself; for Americans, that means around $8 per gallon), and I would probably do most of my computing on low-power Rasperry Pi4 and Android tablets, lol.

Mind you, prices of electricity did soar here too during the latter half of 2022, sometimes fluctuating between e.g. 30-90 cents per kWh, but did luckily come down a lot from the beginning of 2023, and have stayed quite low besides some occasional peaks due to repairs of Swedish-Finnish power lines, or a maintenance outage of some nuclear power plant, accompanied by calm weathers so there hasn't been abundance of wind energy either to lower the prices... For instance today, when it is quite cold (-5 C degrees) and not much of wind power, the spot price fluctuates by hour between 2,6 - 8 cents per kWh (plus taxes).

On windy days, the untaxed price of electricity can go close to zero, due to abundance of wind power. On calm weather it is generally higher.
If you only need your car in order to drive to the next supermarket or a pretty close "work place", a plug in hybrid might be the best deal. Can slowly load in between and many cheap miles this way. However, if you use your car driving up to 500+ miles at certain days... in this term you need a "fast charge" and those fast charging stations are bloody expensive... it can become even more expensive than using gasoline and you are still more secure using gasoline.

In my mind electric cars are great for city and short distances. Hybrid is great at medium distances but for long distances... nothing can really beat a good old gasoline-car and it is not even more pricy.

If you want to save up on cost... use a aircraft... because those prices are often below what the used energy may actually cost... which is magical. A bicycle or a bus may work too... anything is cheaper than a car, which is the most luxury way of traveling.

If i got enough coins i would buy out all the fast charging stations... it surely is a valuable asset in order to become rich. What? Musk did it? Okay, not surprised.

Ah no, the true power prices will not matter at all, because this price is not done by your "home-provider" but by me (i wish... now im sad) or Musk instead.

True = at your home, which is actually still fake because the power company can sometimes buy power at a below zero cost... yet a customer will always pay some "flat price". It depends on the "food-chain", the further away from the source... the higher the price will become, drastically higher even. It is always a distribution of might at the end, in which the ones farthest away will pay like mad and the ones very close sometimes below zero. What? I was spelling out a secret on how a lot of cash is made? I really fail keeping this secret for myself.
Post edited October 29, 2023 by Xeshra
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timppu: Anyway, my question still is: did you have such high prices already in e.g. 2021 and earlier? How much did electricity cost back then there?
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Zimerius: Actually the delivery costs for both gas and electricity seen a huge rise starting mid of 2021

article : https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/longread/rapportages/2022/de-energierekening-in-januari-2022-hogere-leveringstarieven-en-lagere-belastingen/3-de-ontwikkeling-van-de-prijs-van-energie

see attachment
I googled what NL uses for electricity, and it was pretty much as I suspected:

https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/netherlands-energy

The top five energy sources in the Netherlands were as follows: natural gas (47%), wind (15%), coal (14%), solar (10%), and biomass (8%). Additional energy sources included nuclear, petroleum products and hydropower. The country has one nuclear power plant and one LNG terminal.
Almost half of the electricity being produced with natural gas probably explains the high electricity prices, and your graph also confirmed their prices are closely dependent.

I would have expected more wind power but I guess NL is too densely populated also on the coast, and the same probably explains the minor role of nuclear power (no one wants a nuclear power plant in their backyard, even if it is less likely to kill you than a coal power plant in your backyard).
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Xeshra: In my mind electric cars are great for city and short distances. Hybrid is great at medium distances but for long distances... nothing can really beat a good old gasoline-car and it is not even more pricy.
Depends. Here where I live gasoline is quite expensive (around 2€/liter = 8 USD per gallon) while electricity is quite cheap, so electric cars make much more sense than in places where gasoline is cheaper and electricity might be quite pricey.

You e.g. mentioned that fast charging stations are bloody pricey. Here a pretty normal price for e.g. a 80-100kW DC charger is around 30-33 cents/kWh. I consider that an ok price if you are really on a much longer journey and need to get a refill as soon as possible to continue your trip. Slower public AC chargers (11 or 22kW) usually cost around 20 cents/kWh, sometimes less (e.g. I sometimes charge at 22kW power on a local grocery store charger which costs me a measly 6-7 cents/kWh, while I go buy the groceries).
 
My daily trip to work is about 60km so I drive at least 120km per day, up to 200km per day consider other driving after work. I save quite a bit of money by driving an EV instead of a gasoline car. I can charge the car at home at nights, and at work slow charging (around 2.3 kW AC) is free at least for now.

I specifically didn't want a plug-in hybrid because I abhor the idea of having two separate motors (combustion engine and an electric engine) in one car. More stuff that may break down. I specifically love the simplicity of an electric car, an electric motor is quite simple compared to a combustion engine, no need for catalytic converters, heck EV does not even need transmission.
I have a solid build with no cut corners. I built it to play all the games I couldn't before and to prepare for Squadron 42.

MSI MPG X570 Gaming Edge WiFi
Ryzen 7 3800x (will upgrade to Ryzen 9 5950 eventually for Topaz)
XFX QICK RX 6800 16GB
Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 32GB PC3200
SAMSUNG 970 EVO 512GB M.2 NVME (for the OS)
SAMSUNG 970 EVO 1TB M.2 NVME (for games)
Western Digital Blue 1TB SSD (for movies and photos)
Corsair Neutron 256Gb SSD (for documents and CBRs)
VisionTek 1TB SSD (for music and miscellaneous)
Thermal Right Assasin King 120SE White CPU Cooler
Seasonic Focus GX-750w PSU *0 PLUS Gold (10 year warranty)
NZXT H7 Flow case
Corsair K60 RGB Pro with replacement PBT Double-Shot Pro keys
Corsair M55 RGB Pro mouse

I game at 4k if the game supports it.

Currently installed games:

Anteworld Outerra
ANTHEM
Dark Pictures Anthology House of Ashes Demo
Fallout 3 Game of the Year
Farlight 84 Demo
Ghostrunner 2 Demo
Hitman 3 Demo
Horizon Zero Dawn Complete
I Am Alive
Jurassic World Evolution
Left Alive
Like A Dragon Ishin Combat Demo
Limit Theory Prototype (dead Kickstarter game)
Lord of the Rings Online (just reinstalled)
Max Payne 3
Mobile Suit GUNDAM Battle Operation 2
NaissanceE
Need For Speed Shift
Need For Speed Shift Hot Pursuit
Operation Flashpoint Dragon Rising
Project Nimbus Complete
Project Planet - Earth vs Humanity Demo
Resident Evil Operation Raccoon City
Ryse Son of Rome
Secret World
Soulstice
Space Engineers
Terminator Resistance
Tom Clacy's Ghosr Recon Wildlands
Tom Clancy's Rainbow 6 Vegas
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell
Watch_Dogs
Zombi
Post edited October 30, 2023 by u2jedi
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Xeshra: In my mind electric cars are great for city and short distances. Hybrid is great at medium distances but for long distances... nothing can really beat a good old gasoline-car and it is not even more pricy.
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timppu: Depends. Here where I live gasoline is quite expensive (around 2€/liter = 8 USD per gallon) while electricity is quite cheap, so electric cars make much more sense than in places where gasoline is cheaper and electricity might be quite pricey.

You e.g. mentioned that fast charging stations are bloody pricey. Here a pretty normal price for e.g. a 80-100kW DC charger is around 30-33 cents/kWh. I consider that an ok price if you are really on a much longer journey and need to get a refill as soon as possible to continue your trip. Slower public AC chargers (11 or 22kW) usually cost around 20 cents/kWh, sometimes less (e.g. I sometimes charge at 22kW power on a local grocery store charger which costs me a measly 6-7 cents/kWh, while I go buy the groceries).
 
My daily trip to work is about 60km so I drive at least 120km per day, up to 200km per day consider other driving after work. I save quite a bit of money by driving an EV instead of a gasoline car. I can charge the car at home at nights, and at work slow charging (around 2.3 kW AC) is free at least for now.

I specifically didn't want a plug-in hybrid because I abhor the idea of having two separate motors (combustion engine and an electric engine) in one car. More stuff that may break down. I specifically love the simplicity of an electric car, an electric motor is quite simple compared to a combustion engine, no need for catalytic converters, heck EV does not even need transmission.
It seems to work for you, with the environment available at your location. It may not be the same benefit for other locations. In Germany for example, some review sites was checking out the energy cost between a Diesel-car and a EV-car while driving 1000 KM, and the diesel car was cheaper doing so (EV was always using fast charge). However, Germany is very expensive at the electricity bill... so a worst case. Funny enough... the government is trying to support EV like mad... even using taxes for it...

Some other countrys simply lack the required charging stations or the required competence repairing a EV car... but if it works for you... you are indeed lucky. It always depends on the personal situation, of course.

Regarding the vulnerability of gasoline cars: It totally depends on the car. Some gasoline-engines are that well build, they can last you up to 30 years or over 300k KM with nearly zero parts breaking down on the engine and even the transmission can last way over 300k KM without breaking down. However, automatic transmissions is generally more durable, and more expensive to build.

My gasoline car is 22 year of age, over 200k KM, it is still going strong... not any issue on the "complicated" engine.

The main issue in general is the electronics, of any car... every car is in need of vulnerable electronics nowadays. And a EV got even more electronics including a sensitive huge battery... and once the battery will break down, it is comparable to a engine-breakdown of a gasoline-car, not fun at all. I know some people who had this issue... and no warranty, so they was doomed. However, the technology is still improving on the battery.

The other parts... if we exclude the main battery (EV only), engine and transmission, are actually almost same for any car... so a car is not that different still. But i do agree that a hybrid car got the highest amount of parts able to "break down", yet... if the quality is alright they are very long lasting, for example the Toyota Corolla Hybrid... a proven hybrid with high reliability.

°Catalytic converter is a "forced part", a car is not really in need of it but most countrys are enforcing it by law. However, the key is to sufficiently heat up your engine in a regular manner... this way this converter may last very long (up to 10 years is possible). If you always drive short distances, barely heating up the engine (and converter), it can break down rather quick... so it depends on driving style. Gasoline and short distances (diesel even worse) does NOT fit.

However, the cars with highest endurance possible are probably some gasoline and diesel cars with very few, but high quality, electronics. Toyota Land Cruiser is known for its legendary reliability (although very expensive at any age), but... even some "hidden gems" (so the price is not that crazy) that are mostly overlooked such as some old versions of the "Subaru Outback" (Lancaster in the US) with exceptional reliability.
Post edited October 30, 2023 by Xeshra
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timppu: I would have expected more wind power but I guess NL is too densely populated also on the coast, and the same probably explains the minor role of nuclear power (no one wants a nuclear power plant in their backyard, even if it is less likely to kill you than a coal power plant in your backyard).
you are right with this assumption. its been quite the major discussion point, up to today. Build a windpark, sure but preferably along the coast. Solar panels? yes, on the rooftops please, but we also need to cut down on animal farming to be able hit the CO2 goals, yea sure, we will be more dependant on external sources for food, meanwhile we also have a housing problem with an ever expanding population.... and the industry? sure we will proceed with thought. for one we will ensure our number one money maker, the national airport will have a reduced number flights starting this year, our biggest polluters will shine by slowly turning over to less traditional fuel sources.... they have just started off this 2,3b deal to have at least 2% of the harbor industry running on water...... I remember working on a lng terminal btw, i belief the total costs of that plant ranged well into the 100b.... at least we have still the lng terminal and the amazing feat of self ridicule! i mean, surely that lng gas is not russian :p

i don't mind btw... prices are ridiculous.... and personally i feel that the nato has been a tad to much overzealous regarding the border area's etc etc etc war of course is horrible, but the whole, Europe needs to take a stand.... sure ... Europe needs to act responsible for their own doing..!