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General discussionPossible class-action lawsuit for cdpr(83 posts)(83 posts)
(83 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 20, 2020
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AB2012: They can try and "argue" that but that 1. Sony themselves have force-removed the game from their store for "inadequate performance and quality expected of the platform" (a platform with fixed specifications that have been known for nearly 10 years),
AFAIK they said :
SIE strives to ensure a high level of customer satisfaction, and we will begin to offer a full refund for all gamers who have purchased Cyberpunk 2077 via PlayStation Store and want a refund. Please visit the following link to initiate the refund: https://bit.ly/3h5VkpC.
or
SIE strives to ensure a high level of customer satisfaction, therefore we will begin to offer a full refund for all gamers who have purchased Cyberpunk 2077 via PlayStation Store. SIE will also be removing Cyberpunk 2077 from PlayStation Store until further notice.

Once we have confirmed that you purchased Cyberpunk 2077 via PlayStation Store, we will begin processing your refund. Please note that completion of the refund may vary based on your payment method and financial institution.
And if we believe what CDPR said it was after discussion after Sony that they, together, decided together to remove the game. So it wasn't a unilateral decision from Sony, and it was linked to the refunds rather than any issues with performances, at least I didn't find any official statement from Sony suggesting it, only peoples speculation. Also as other have mentioned games in a worse state than Cyberpunk were released and never pulled out from the Sony store.


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AB2012: and that 2. The context of what most people "surprisingly well" for frame-rates in first person games would be an average of what other games run like on that console
It's irrelevant what most people, or even console gamer expect, "surprisingly well" is purely subjective, is it misleading ? yes, but it's the kind of "vague" (some would say BS) words that are often used in stakeholder meeting, especially when talking to non technical peoples, "it will be released soon", "it is working satisfactorily", etc...
Posted December 20, 2020
The domino of consequences.
Posted December 20, 2020
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Gersen: It's irrelevant what most people, or even console gamer expect, "surprisingly well" is purely subjective
It may well be nowhere near as subjective as you think if Sony laid out in the developer documentation that comes with the PS4 toolkit something like "The PS4 platform target is 30fps. Some occasional dips below this to 20fps are acceptable, but averaging 10-15fps and dipping down to 9fps isn't" or something like that. I recall reading in the past that Microsoft has stuff like for XBox. And regardless of what CDPR's "feels" is "surprisingly good performance", CDPR agreed to this when they both signed the contract and also clicked "I Agree" on the EULA on the PS4 development kit to use it to make CP2077 for the first time. Sony & MS have been at this a long time. They put stuff like that in their documentation as a "water-tight" legal defence from devs suing them on overly vague subjective reasons from being booted from the store against their will. I guarantee you won't see CDPR suing Sony to force them to be allowed to put CP2077 on PS Store there for same reason.
Post edited December 20, 2020 by AB2012
Posted December 20, 2020
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AB2012: It may well be nowhere near as subjective as you think if Sony laid out in the developer documentation that comes with the PS4 toolkit something like "The PS4 platform target is 30fps. Some occasional dips below this to 20fps are acceptable, but averaging 10-15fps and dipping down to 9fps isn't" or something like that. I recall reading in the past that Microsoft has stuff like for XBox. And regardless of what CDPR's "feels" is "surprisingly good performance", CDPR agreed to this when they both signed the contract and also clicked "I Agree" on the EULA on the PS4 development kit to use it to make CP2077 for the first time.
^ He's right, Gersen. This isn't a simple "he said, she said", thing where CDPR investors "don't have a leg to stand on because Kicinski didn't give out exact numbers but simply 'feels' like 9 fps is 'surprisingly good performance'". Who gets to decide the baseline at which Playstation games perform badly enough to be removed is Sony, not Adam Kicinski. That they got booted for said reason is self-evident as to who sets the standard of "acceptability".
Post edited December 20, 2020 by BrianSim
Posted December 20, 2020
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AB2012: It may well be nowhere near as subjective as you think if Sony laid out in the developer documentation that comes with the PS4 toolkit something like "The PS4 platform target is 30fps. Some occasional dips below this to 20fps are acceptable, but averaging 10-15fps and dipping down to 9fps isn't" or something like that. I recall reading in the past that Microsoft has stuff like for XBox.
Even IF it was the case it would be between, that would be an issue between CDPR and Sony (and as far as I know Sony doesn't plan to sue CDPR and vice-versa) and it wouldn't have anything to do with the "surprisingly well" statement but with CDPR not fulfilling their contract with Sony.
Posted December 20, 2020
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Invasion10: Gonna be funny when everyone burns CDPR to the ground and EA takes over GOG, Witcher series, and Cyberpunk.
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MaceyNeil: Not really. Teaching myself to code so i can make games that i can actually enjoy. Using linux to keep away from mainstream.
Fact of the matter is boardgaming is having a resurgence and I'm heavily invested in that; quite comfortably so.

Far as I'm concerned if they abandon the values that are the niche, they deserve everything they get for the malicious psychopathy that is a corporate capitalistic ethos.
If they want to say it's a dog eat dog world, they can't also complain when a dog like steam knocks them down and gobbles them up.
Careful: bullshit is coming to coding. I recommend that if you're not using C (which is most likely the case), be prepared to port to it over the next 10 years, and even then that doesn't protect you, but I imagine C is least likely to get affected. C++ is about to turn into hell, java already is, and the writing's on the wall that Google's going to play with everything else when their shit with C++ causes and exodus.
Posted December 20, 2020
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BrianSim: ^ He's right, Gersen. This isn't a simple "he said, she said", thing where CDPR investors "don't have a leg to stand on because Kicinski didn't give out exact numbers but simply 'feels' like 9 fps is 'surprisingly good performance'". Who gets to decide the baseline at which Playstation games perform badly enough to be removed is Sony, not Adam Kicinski. That they got booted for said reason is self-evident as to who sets the standard of "acceptability".
Do you have any official statement from Sony saying that the game was removed because it didn't meet the performance baseline ? And again "surprisingly well" is not the same as saying "it meets/exceed Sony and Microsoft baseline".
Posted December 20, 2020
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Gersen: Even IF it was the case it would be between, that would be an issue between CDPR and Sony (and as far as I know Sony doesn't plan to sue CDPR and vice-versa) and it wouldn't have anything to do with the "surprisingly well" statement but with CDPR not fulfilling their contract with Sony.
Absolutely wrong. 3rd parties get involved all the time in these quality standards disputes. You cannot seriously be that naive that if Sony sets 30fps guidelines / 20fps minimum whilst Adam Kicinsk says "well 9-15fps is my personal authoritative definition of a first-person game that runs "very good, surprisingly good" but we also never said that when we asked you for money", and the game gets booted from Sony store due to a flood of refunds for abnormally poor performance, any lawyer who launches a lawsuit will say "Well Gersen of GOG.com said that Adam's personal feelings are the ultimate authority so that's that. Case closed".

I hope CDPR don't get sued by their investors, but if they did literally the first phone made from the investors lawyers would be to Sony asking them for a copy of the QA standards / clauses they make developers sign in contracts / development guidelines, etc, and why the game got removed from sale. You know as well as I do what that reason is. The release state of the PS4 version of Cyberpunk 2077 is far removed from "very good, surprisingly good" as can be (and "Adam of CDPR disagrees" does not in any way, shape or form dictate or override whatever standards a court may use, especially if the very same CDPR had agreed with Sony to meet much higher standards due to Sony's own default QA standards to be on the PS store in the first place)...
Post edited December 20, 2020 by AB2012
Posted December 20, 2020
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Turbo-Beaver: I expect the lawsuit would be shareholders suing the board for breach of fiduciary duty (alleging the management failed to act in best interest of the company) because the stock price has tanked. It's not unheard of, in the US at least. Fixing bugs wouldn't help avoid such litigation.
That theory doesn't sit with "misrepresentation in order to receive financial benefits”. I mean, did the management get some kind of financial benefits by misrepresenting how the game runs on stock PS4 and XBoxOne, and releasing the game ahead of time?

If there were cases where some CDPR managers sold all their CDP stocks just before the release of the game, then maybe it could be seen there was foul play that fits that allegation. Then again, the stock would have plummeted also if CDPR had announced that the game release is pushed back to June 2021, or Dec 2021.
Posted December 20, 2020
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Gersen: Do you have any official statement from Sony saying that the game was removed because it didn't meet the performance baseline ?.
LOL. You're right. The reason for removal had nothing to do with the game running at 5-15fps whilst looking like this. No sir, instead the REAL reason Sony removed it was because the Sony CEO caught Adam banging his wife... :-D
Posted December 20, 2020
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AB2012: They can try and "argue" that but that 1. Sony themselves have force-removed the game from their store for "inadequate performance and quality expected of the platform"
Have they? The internets is full of rumors of what CDPR and Sony has discusses and agreed on it, and one source tells CDPR made the initiative to Sony so that PS4 buyers could get refunds too (since Sony's stance to refunds is quite strict and they don't want to give them easily), and Sony gave CDPR two choices:

1. No refunds.

2. Ok, refunds, but then you will have to also remove the game from the store for the time being, as with refunds you are admitting the game is not ready for the store.

So according to that it wasn't really Sony that decided to remove the game from the store on their own. After all, if it was, then there wouldn't have been any discussions between Sony and CDPR needed.
Posted December 20, 2020
high rated
Guys...

The source of all this is literally a single post made on the forums of bankier.pl, a Polish investment website, by a person claiming to be Mikołaj Orzechowski, a lawyer from Warsaw, and asking others to contact him on the email he provided (....@4bizzz.com sounds really professional).

Original post here:
https://www.bankier.pl/forum/pokaz-tresc?thread_id=9105597&strona=1

This is the equivalent of me posting on the forums here that I'm a professional lawyer from Timbuktoo going to sue Steam.

Polish news sites commented on this, adding that they've tried to reach the said lawyer but weren't successful yet.

And now foreign news websites are writing about it like it's a done deal.

Sheeesh....
Posted December 20, 2020
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Gersen: Do you have any official statement from Sony saying that the game was removed because it didn't meet the performance baseline ?.
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BrianSim: LOL. You're right. The reason for removal had nothing to do with the game running at 5-15fps whilst looking like this. No sir, instead the REAL reason Sony removed it was because the Sony CEO caught Adam banging his wife... :-D
Or then it was CDPR wanting PS4 owners to be eligible for refunds too, and Sony agreed on that only if the game is also removed from the store for the time being. Sony's refund-policy is known to be very strict in general, as in "no refunds".
Post edited December 20, 2020 by timppu
Posted December 20, 2020
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.Ra: Lawyers and investors in Warsaw are circling the situation, contemplating a class-action lawsuit against the company for what one attorney described as potential criminal “misrepresentation in order to receive financial benefits.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/19/style/cyberpunk-2077-video-game-disaster.html
They can try, I don't like the chances of winning though.
Posted December 20, 2020
This is a translation of the post:

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
My name is Mikołaj Orzechowski, I am a Warsaw attorney at law and a CDPR investor. In connection with recent events - and in particular the suspension of the sale of the product CYBERPUNK 2077, we are currently analyzing, together with the law firm's team, the grounds for filing a class action together with filing a notification of the possibility of committing a crime under article 286 of the Civil Code. - misleading in order to obtain a financial benefit. If you are interested in participating in the above, please contact us at (emailremoved)@4bizzz.com. The contact is absolutely free of charge, my entry is to verify whether to undertake the above activities by yourself or whether there are more people in a situation similar to mine. We are also preparing material, together with one of the Internet portals, about the rights of investors, in case of such a bright, inconsistent with the facts, the attitude of the board - see information about the fact that the game is ready, taking into account several delays in the release, as well as statements in which the said board admits that it did not exercise due diligence in developing the game for the PS4 platform.

I kindly inform you that I will not provide any comments in this thread. Any entries will remain unanswered.

Thank you very much,
with respect,
attorney Mikołaj Orzechowski
This, written as a post on a website forum, is the only source for this.
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Community
General discussionPossible class-action lawsuit for cdpr(83 posts)(83 posts)
(83 posts)