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General discussionOrlando, FL (US): Shooting at gay nightclub kills 50(354 posts) (354 posts) 
(354 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 14, 2016
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morolf: To be fair, Muslims aren't ALWAYS solely at fault for conflict...Hindu or Buddhist extremists in countries like India or Burma can be rather unpleasant too. Though on the core issue I agree: Muslim immigration is mainly harmful for Western nations, creates unneccessary problems and adds little of worth. For the foreseeable future it should be restricted to the absolute minimum.
The Muslim world needs to be taken into quarantine until it reforms.
Actually, they are NEVER solely at fault for conflict, and neither is any other ethnicity.





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richlind33: People who resort to propaganda are scum in my book.
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: Are you referring to the "Ostrich Brigade" accusing republicans on that one to shift the weight over white christians, or people who actually bothered to count up piles of evidence over the years?
There's evidence and there's evidence, and damn few people know the difference between solid, reputable sources and shit sources.
Post edited June 14, 2016 by richlind33
Posted June 14, 2016
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Sufyan: Gay sex is adultery, which if proven in a court of law carries a death penalty WHICH IN TURN: requires 4 male witnesses of good character who have witnessed the sex act without a doubt AND: the accused may repent the offense and be forgiven, which means no earthly punishment.
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Kleetus: And that paragraph illustrates the idiocy and fantasy of religion.

What utter nonsense.
I'd say it illustrates how Islamic law reserves the highest penalty only for those deliberately go out of their way to rebel against God and have themselves killed.

Likewise, a self-declared apostate can not legally be executed unless they are engaging in high treason against the muslim community, ie a confession or a strong suspicion is not enough. Only one who goes out of his way to hurt his former brothers and sisters can safely be assumed to have left islam.

I can see how in this age when half the people on the internet seem to be caught up in distorted populist rhetoric this all seems very silly and inefficient. Why have a death penalty if you're not going to use it anyhow, right?
Posted June 14, 2016
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Sufyan: Islamic law
Again, it illustrates how dangerous religion is.

A fairy tale and made-up nonsense should never dictate any laws, let alone morality and execution.

People actually believe Mohammed road on a winged horse and split the moon?

The same people who then think they are mentally competent to dictate to others?

EDIT: For the record, Christianity is no better, all religions are utter nonsense.
Post edited June 14, 2016 by Kleetus
Posted June 14, 2016
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Brasas: [...] I can't imagine how the families and friends of the victims must be feeling. Since the asshole doing this got what was coming to him maybe some folks will find some closure more easily. Still won't bring back any of their loved ones though.
[...]
I'm not gonna use this as an opportunity to vent on radical shitheads from a savage religion or those that defend/enable them. Nor am I going to use this as an opportunity to take jabs at the gun control loonies. I just want to refute the bolded statement.

No. No, he didn't. He was put down like the sick dog he is, but he did not get what was coming to him. After all the pain and carnage and death and division to this country and mourning he has caused I disagree. What he had coming to him is forbidden by both US and international law. What he had coming was no less than what Marcel Wallace would have called "going medieval on his ass" every day while every evening locked in a cell with photographs of his victims and their grieving families behind plexiglass as he rests for the same treatment the following day. What he got instead was much quicker and more humane than what he deserved.

My condolences go out to the friends, family and loved ones of the victims.

p.s. Sorry Brasas, wasn't aimed at you.
Post edited June 14, 2016 by jdsiege
Posted June 14, 2016
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Gilozard: The problem is that right now feelings are running high and productive discussion is the least likely outcome. Tempers need to cool off before people can make rational policies, generally.

The most frustrating part for me is that if we followed our existing gun control laws, manymass shootings would have been prevented.

We don't need more gun control laws, we need actual enforcement of the ones we do have. And we need police and FBI to stop engaging in turf wars and cooperate on the background checks.
The thing though is that we know the right thing to do, it's just that we haven't done it.

The death toll on this one is higher than any of our others, but this happens regularly enough that we can't allow people to stonewall action when there's actual interest in doing so.

We know that background checks, reducing the size of magazines and limiting the types of ammo available would make a difference. We also know that ensuring that everybody is provided with adequate education and mental health care would make a huge difference as well.

But, it's the same group that wants unhampered access to firearms that also tends to be against providing the other social services necessary to get to these people.

If, this were the first incident, then I'd tend to agree that we need to wait, but this isn't even the first one this year and we already know what to do about it, we just lack the will to do it..
Posted June 14, 2016
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tort1234: A Short Course on Understanding Muslims:

Lesson1

The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim.

The Beltway Snipers were Muslims.

The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim.

The underwear Bomber was a Muslim.

The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims.

The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims.

The Bafi Nightclub Bombers were Muslims.

The London Subway Bombers were Muslims.

The Moscow Theater Attackers were Muslims.

The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims.

The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims.

The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims.

The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims.

The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims.

The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Muslims.

The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims.

The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims.

The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims.

The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims.

The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims.

The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims.

The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims.

The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims.

The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims.

The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims.

The Russian airliner bombers were Muslims.

The Paris assassins were Muslims.

The Mali hotel attackers were Muslims.

The San Bernardino killers were Muslims, etc., etc., etc…

And the headliners are not even the half of it.

Lesson 2(a)

Think of it:

Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem.

Hindus living with Christians = No Problem.

Hindus living with Jews = No Problem.

Christians living with Shintos = No Problem.

Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem.

Confucians living with Bahai's = No Problem.

Bahai’s living with Jews = No Problem.

Jews living with Atheists = No Problem.

Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem.

Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem.

Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem.

Hindus living with Bahai’s = No Problem.

Bahai’s living with Christians = No Problem.

Christians living with Jews = No Problem.

Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem.

Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem.

Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem.

Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem.

Confucians living with Hindus = No Problem.

Lesson 2(b)

Muslims living with Hindus = Problem.

Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem.

Muslims living with Christians = Problem.

Muslims living with Jews = Problem.

Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem.

Muslims living with Bahai’s = Problem.

Muslims living with Shintos = Problem.

Muslims living with Atheists = Problem.

MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM.

Lesson (3a)

SO THIS LEADS TO *******

They're not happy in Gaza.

They're not happy in Egypt.

They're not happy in Libya.

They're not happy in Morocco.

They're not happy in Iran.

They're not happy in Iraq.

They're not happy in Yemen.

They're not happy in Afghanistan.

They're not happy in Pakistan.

They're not happy in Syria.

They're not happy in Lebanon.

They're not happy in Nigeria.

They're not happy in Somalia.

They're not happy in Sudan.

Lesson 3(b)

SO WHERE ARE THEY HAPPY? **

They're happy in Australia.

They're happy in England.

They're happy in Belgium.

They're happy in France.

They're happy in Italy.

They're happy in Germany.

They're happy in Sweden.

They’re happy in Norway.

They’re happy in India.

They're happy in the Canada.

They're happy in the United States.

They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic! And who do they blame?

Not Islam... Not their leadership... Not themselves, THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!!

And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries they came from where they were unhappy!

Lesson 4

Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

ISIS : AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION.

CAIR: PUBLIC RELATIONS FOR ISLAMIC TERRROR ORGANIZATIONS.

To name a few. And we just can’t figure out who's causing the problem…
Thank you for an excellent summation of the problem. As soon as I received word of this tragic event I knew it would be immediately propagandized by gun control advocates. The real threat is obvious to anyone still able to see beyond the confines of political correctness.
Posted June 14, 2016
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tammerwhisk: Not trying to start anything. I've gotta ask though hows that even work? Every passage I've ever read from their texts is anything but tolerant. I don't even think I've seen the margin/room for debate that other belief systems allow for when it comes to these topics. Seen a lot of death penalty passages and conquer type passages though.
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Sufyan: There aren't that many sins warranting a death penatly, ie legally ordained execution following a fair trial. Being gay or being a crossdresser is not one of them. Whatever the case, under no circumstances are murders acceptable in Islam. I say murder to differentiate it from self-defence or casualties of war.

To understand the Qur'an you have to go into it knowing that all verses connect and depend on each other. One verse without context, and without links to other verses, does not give you an understanding of the laws laid down in it.

So... being gay is not a sin, BUT: Men can not marry other men, and women can not marry other women. WHICH MEANS: Gay sex is adultery, which if proven in a court of law carries a death penalty WHICH IN TURN: requires 4 male witnesses of good character who have witnessed the sex act without a doubt AND: the accused may repent the offense and be forgiven, which means no earthly punishment.

As far as I know, no one was stoned to death for adultery during the life time of prophet Muhammad. As you can also tell, the conditions under which it becomes legal to execute a muslim for adultery is very specific and requires an actual court recognised by the muslim community. No such place really exist in the world today. No, Saudi Arabia and Iran does not count, their laws are national laws.

It is very unlikely that any gay person will ever be properly convicted as per the Qur'an, so for now we only have to deal with human rights in certain muslim majority countries and do what we can stopping future Islamist self-styled vigilantees from murdering people they don't like.
Of the passages I've read in the best the surrounding context did little to redeem the text. Even tried asking some Muslims about it whether like other religions it's a language/translation thing, idiomatic thing, or whatever and all the one's I have spoken with have done is refer me to a bunch of stupid ass street interviews of some jackass going "Islam means peace" over and over to people on the street.

And truth be told your explanation of the adultry thing seems barbaric as fuck and has a potential for abuse (false testimony?).
Posted June 14, 2016
Pictures from inside the shooter's apartment. [url=http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/19/353BF07F00000578-3639587-The_bathroom_in_Mateen_s_home-a-16_1465843592183.jpg]Star Wars!
Posted June 14, 2016
I'm going to type out a more thoughtful post later, but for now, this'll have to do.

I've only read the first 4 pages of this thread, and I notice the subject of gun control has been coming up, especially by people living in Europe.

I'll say this about Europe. Know what you're not allowed to own in Europe? Guns. Know what you ARE allowed to have? Bars on your windows! Like a prison. Or insane asylum.

I also hear there's quite a problem in London with stabbings? What are you gonna do to prevent that, outlaw silverware?

Y'know, just when Congress is trying to figure out how to outlaw guns and destroy the 2nd Amendment, we have all these problems with mass shootings, just coming out of nowhere! We never used to have this problem THIS much! I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but inside jobs, maybe?

A wise man once told me: You're not going to go up against a tank with a shotgun. And I told him: You won't need to, if your enemy ISN'T rolling through the streets with tanks!

But imagine if someone broke into your house at night, with the intent to kill you and your family? How would you defend yourself?

The solution for dealing with ISIS and militarized Islam isn't going to be a politically correct one; probably along the lines of putting people of Middle Eastern descent into concentration camps, like the U.S. did with the Japanese in WWII. Of course, good luck rounding up that many people without the country turning into a complete and total police state.

I'll say this, too: IF guns are ever outlawed in the U.S., and mass confiscations take place, that's gonna involve the police, and possibly even the military, kicking down your door, and searching your entire house, even if you don't have any guns registered, because just because you don't have guns registered, doesn't mean you don't own guns. Simply put, gun control would be an excuse for an invasive government to become all that much more invasive. And if you smoke pot? Law enforcement would certainly discover that if they ever had the excuse to kick down your door, as well as drag you in kicking and screaming if you're guilty of other harmless, yet still illegal activity.
Post edited June 14, 2016 by DJPomegranate
Posted June 14, 2016
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fronzelneekburm: Pictures from inside the shooter's apartment. [url=http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/13/19/353BF07F00000578-3639587-The_bathroom_in_Mateen_s_home-a-16_1465843592183.jpg]Star Wars!
Jar Jar told him to do it.
Posted June 14, 2016
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DJPomegranate: You're not going to go up against a tank with a shotgun. And I told him: You won't need to, if your enemy ISN'T rolling through the streets with tanks!
But that's one of the pro-gun justifications, to protect against their government going rogue.

Does anyone seriously believe, regardless of how well-armed they are, that they would last long against a government with all its resources, especially so for the US government?

If they did go rogue, automatic weapons won't help you.
Posted June 14, 2016
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Kleetus: But that's one of the pro-gun justifications, to protect against their government going rogue.

Does anyone seriously believe, regardless of how well-armed they are, that they would last long against a government with all its resources, especially so for the US government?

If they did go rogue, automatic weapons won't help you.
The government wouldn't foreseeably ever "go rogue" to that extent. It would be extremely costly. And the logistics would be a nightmare, especially seeing as the populous is well-armed.

Part of the whole reason they prefer "convincing" people to give up their rights willingly.
Posted June 14, 2016
Let's have some more classy tweets. Surely, the rampant homophobia on display must be the fault of toxic masculinity, the NRA, Christianity, Donald Trump, violent video games,...
Posted June 14, 2016
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Kleetus: But that's one of the pro-gun justifications, to protect against their government going rogue.

Does anyone seriously believe, regardless of how well-armed they are, that they would last long against a government with all its resources, especially so for the US government?

If they did go rogue, automatic weapons won't help you.
I'm sooo tired of this argument, but here we go...

In a word, yes.

Tried tactics are still true today. Cutting supply lines, guerrilla warfare (even with IR drones) especially in urban environments, etc are still effective. Look at Vietnam, Afghanistan and the like. A significant portion of gun owners are also veterans.

But more importantly, are the people in our police and military. The key word is people. How many do you think will turn arms on their countrymen. I can't speak for Europe or Australia but our police/military do not pledge oaths to any office or person. Instead they swear an oath to their municipality/country and our Constitution.

I can't think of any officers or veterans that I know personally that isn't a firearm owner, if not an enthusiast. The very militias that would rise would be made up of people like their fathers and brothers and themselves. Any martial attack on citizens would only provoke more people to rebel.

I think if one were to order a disarming of the country, you would be hard pressed to find a base that didn't have a coup. You would not see shotguns versus tanks. You would see tanks versus tanks. And worse. :(

I think even the fools in D.C. are smart enough not to risk a situation that might turn a share of the military against the Capitol.

Our founding fathers weren't perfect but they laid serious groundwork for one the best countries on Earth. Sure, I envy Europe for things like consumer protection laws, but we got it good. Damned good. The Second Amendment was just another check and balance that they provided us.


EDIT: And lest you think it unlikely that a US officer/serviceman might refuse orders, here is an an example of officers from a much more authoritarian army doing just that: http://www.smh.com.au/world/how-top-generals-refused-to-march-on-tiananmen-square-20100603-x7f0.html
Post edited June 14, 2016 by jdsiege
Posted June 14, 2016
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jdsiege: The Second Amendment was just another check and balance that they provided us.
What it has provided is that every nutjob or fool with a grudge or that's disgruntled/disenchanted has easy access to weapons, and in a lot of cases, serious weapons.

That's absolute madness, some people shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car let alone have easy access to firearms.

And if it wasn't an issue, why are there so many shootings and murders?

BTW, gun control doesn't necessarily mean no guns.

It can mean that people have to prove they are fit and competent to own one, what's wrong with that?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionOrlando, FL (US): Shooting at gay nightclub kills 50(354 posts) (354 posts) 
(354 posts)