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General discussionOrlando, FL (US): Shooting at gay nightclub kills 50(354 posts) (354 posts) 
(354 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 13, 2016
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lukaszthegreat:
What are you Gandhi?
Well even he was shot 3 times into chest.
Posted June 13, 2016
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ncameron: I will say this much about people who claim gun control isn't the answer: They are partially correct, in that it isn't the entire solution. There is a social component to the problem which also needs to be addressed. But that is in addition to having serious gun control.
Gun Control can never be the answer as it will fail, all it does is to disarm the law abiding citizen and nothing to disarm the criminal. Here (South Africa) it takes up to 2 years to get a gun licence, yet you can buy a unlicensed one for a few bucks.

South Africa has one of the toughest gun laws, yet we regularly outpace certain warzones in the fatality count on daily basis. There was a time during the Iraq war that more people died in South Africa per day than in the Iraqi war. even one of our politicians stated: "We have 47 murders a day. That sort of figure is what one would expect in a war zone." That was in 2014 last stats given by the Gov it stands on 49 people killed daily

A few facts (with strict gun control)
1) South Africa’s murder rate is five times the world average. The world’s average rate is six people per 100 000. With 17 805 (an increase of 4.6%) murders in the past year, South Africa’s rate stands at 33 per 100 000 people – 5.5 times more than the global average. This was the third consecutive year in which the murder rate increased, with 49 people killed daily.

2) In Gauteng, 49 murders were committed, last year, by children between the ages of 10 and 17.

3) Many police officers moonlight  as criminals. A total of 686 police officers were arrested for several crimes over this past year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/29/south-africa-a-country-at-war-as-rate-soars-to-nearly-49-a-day
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/9-crime-facts-you-may-have-missed-20151003
Posted June 13, 2016
You can't really use South Africa as an example that gun control doesn't work.

That's simplistic, and there are underlying issues that account for a lot of the crime.
Posted June 13, 2016
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Sufyan: I've tried to get #MuslimsForLGBT off the ground.
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BlueMooner: Google showed nothing.
I think most fall under the #LGBTMuslims tag, but I think that's more for Muslims who actually are LGBT as opposed to heterosexual Muslim LGBT rights activists.
Posted June 13, 2016
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morolf: Don't you think that's a bit extreme? I mean, I sympathize with some of your views...but terrorist violence shouldn't be the way to promote your political agenda.
Besides, it seems rather foolish to post such things online. You might draw attention by some security agencies to yourself.
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lukaszthegreat: what 'amuses' me about this is how hypocritical it is:

Person A kills bunch of innocent people
response:
Person B wants to kill bunch of innocent people

How can Person B be angry at Person A if Person B wants to do exactly the same? Shouldn't person B actually applaud Person A for using methods which Person B fully supports? They do exactly the same thing to the same group of people.
And a child whom is strangulated and tortured (if you find pulling off teeth torture without being excessively amused) for exiting a gay club in Brazil - how funny is that?

(NB: a child is anyone under 18 to me, before you wish to amuse yourself over technicalities)

Not at all.

Your "amusement" is lack of empathy, or minimal human sympathy, maybe? Or.
Posted June 13, 2016
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te_lanus: yet you can buy a unlicensed one for a few bucks.
Therein lies the flaw with your argument - South Africa's notoriously bad law enforcement.
Posted June 13, 2016
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Kleetus: That won't ever change for the US with the outdated second amendment and the NRA.

And didn't the NRA trot out the line once that an armed society is safer as they'll be someone with a firearm around to take out the perpetrators?

Didn't happen in this incident, can't actually recall where an armed and law-abiding citizen has saved the day.
The 2nd amendment is a core portion of American culture due to the Revolutionary War.

Well, the idea that an armed citizen will save the day is mostly a fallacy. Though, I will say cutting someone off in traffic in Texas is risky due to that. Engenders a greater consideration of others from having real consequences.

“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
― Robert E. Howard

But that's a red herring argument anyways.
Post edited June 13, 2016 by Firebrand9
Posted June 13, 2016
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lukaszthegreat: what 'amuses' me about this is how hypocritical it is:

Person A kills bunch of innocent people
response:
Person B wants to kill bunch of innocent people

How can Person B be angry at Person A if Person B wants to do exactly the same? Shouldn't person B actually applaud Person A for using methods which Person B fully supports? They do exactly the same thing to the same group of people.
Nope. It's not the methods. It's the reasons, and the shameless exploitation of such incidents. I don't want innocent people killed. I want the people that perpetrate this endless cycle of hate and violence taken out of the equation, and to be honest, I don't see any other way than to fight fire with fire instead of pussy-footing around.

I actually already pointed out the true hypocrisy. This atrocity was committed by an Islamist, and it's left the far right rather confused about whether they should praise or condemn the attack. Most of the tweets and Facebook posts I've seen praising it are from Twitter and Facebook accounts infamous for otherwise posting endless amounts of racist, anti-Semitic, and Islamophobic bullshit.

The far-right and Islamists are two groups that pretty much hate the same things (LGBT, Judaism, gender equality) but also hate each other due to their religious hatred (Islamist hatred of Christians, the far-right's hatred of Muslims). Therein lies the hypocrisy. Most of us are just stuck in the middle and along for the ride.
Posted June 13, 2016
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LiquidOxygen80: You've clearly lead an extremely sheltered existence, my friend. All kinds of avenues exist that circumvent the controls that already exist.
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Pheace: Nah, I just live in a country with sensible gun control.
The US is 230 times the size of your "sensible" country, with 20 times the population. You country is surrounded by heavily controlled eurozone countries. Do you seriously think the two are comparable?

The war on drugs has been a clusterfuck, prohibition definitely wasn't a success, and we have an illegal immigrat- sorry "undocumented worker" problem. Yeah, I'm surrrrrrreeeeee a war on firearms would be a ROARING success.
Posted June 13, 2016
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Firebrand9: Though, I will say cutting someone off in traffic in Texas is risky due to that.
Oh it's risky here too, likely to be someone cranked up on a Meth bender.
Posted June 13, 2016
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Firebrand9: Though, I will say cutting someone off in traffic in Texas is risky due to that.
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Kleetus: Oh it's risky here too, likely to be someone cranked up on a Meth bender.
Extremely unlikely to be cranked up on meth or be anything more than "watch where you going mate".
Posted June 13, 2016
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zeogold: Have some freakin' respect.
I do wonder if this thread will get closed down after reading all this.

My condolences to the families of those who died. :l
Posted June 13, 2016
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tammerwhisk: The US is 230 times the size of your "sensible" country, with 20 times the population. You country is surrounded by heavily controlled eurozone countries. Do you seriously think the two are comparable?

The war on drugs has been a clusterfuck, prohibition definitely wasn't a success, and we have an illegal immigrat- sorry "undocumented worker" problem. Yeah, I'm surrrrrrreeeeee a war on firearms would be a ROARING success.
What you forget to mention there is that every U.S. state is more or less governed as a separate nation. Gun control is legislated at state level, not federal level. Statistics on gun violence are also collected at state level.

The difference lies in the fact that the Netherlands is landlocked by other nations with similarly strict gun control laws. Most U.S. states aren't. It doesn't stop people in the EU nation states from doing stupid shit, and it doesn't eliminate the possibility of malicious gun crime (illegal guns will always be in circulation), but it does make it sufficiently harder for criminals to obtain guns for nefarious purposes.

It's been proven that increased gun control in U.S. states correlates with few gun-related homicides, but it also correlates with higher non-firearm-related homicides. That being said, these gun control laws are usually enacted in states with cities are those host to unusually high levels of crime: California (Los Angeles, Fresno), and gun laws are usually enacted to combat pre-meditated crimes like the Orlando shooting as opposed to impulsive crimes.

Urban concentrations combined with high levels of poverty and poor education enable liberalised firearm ownership to exacerbate the violence problem, which is why such states favour gun control laws. States with lax gun laws tend to be those with fewer urban concentrations.
Post edited June 13, 2016 by jamyskis
Posted June 13, 2016
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jamyskis: What you forget to mention there is that every U.S. state is more or less governed as a separate nation.
Maybe before the federal gov't ballooned out of control. Now it is more like regional HQs.

(gross oversimplification, but still the point stands)
Post edited June 13, 2016 by tammerwhisk
Posted June 13, 2016
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dtgreene: So, this just happened.
Why you are surprised? Because gunshot, or because in the gay club?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionOrlando, FL (US): Shooting at gay nightclub kills 50(354 posts) (354 posts) 
(354 posts)