Is there a reason why we're doing the massclaim today?
The PRs who have been outed since Day 1 just died (which reminds me how short this game has actually been game day wise), there's basically only motivation to claim VT as scum at this point, meaning the best thing I can see massclaim accomplishing is letting SK/wolves know who they need to kill.

Do you disagree with a cristi vote, bler? I mean, I'm sure you're the type of guy who disagrees with every vote all the time but I can't say I see a better vote right this second.

What's the paranoia about Lift's game about? Please be kind to those of us who are not GOG regulars.

But I don't think it's a strong post!

how to avert tunnel??? help


I think it might resolve some gamestate weirdness. Though I can see some reasons not to certainly.

Off for a bit.

Multi-faction game, and the one unbruised faction (4v2v1v1) basically set aside any pretense of subtlety and just brute-forced the win, basically by all 4 of them voting me (with no reason beyond hijack bullying), and suckering drealmer into piling on before Ix hammered.

As to your larger question, going into d3 I would've said my reads list (for living players) was something in this ballpark:

tammy
stan cristi
_____
nacho
yogs trent

Trent's vote on cristi isn't explained at all, nor is yours. Stan's vote on cristi is barely explained. Yogs will vote cristi for whatever.

Imagine it is mylo/lylo (whatever the setup) and scum just aren't worried about the consequences of being on a mislynch?

So yeah, the non-reasons bother me a heck of a lot more than whoever the wagon is on. I would probably feel the same if the pile were on trent, though at least there he's VT rather than potentially PR.

Also, I noted earlier that Stan's language suggests she's not the person who killed RW/Brasas, which by process of elimination leaves you/cristi. So either it was cristi knocking off wolves, or it was you. Etc.

And where do you get the "bler is the type who disagrees with every vote all the time" BS? This is the kind of lazy crap that makes me think you're just lurching to your finish line.

I hate this fucking game but you are not going to out-argue me with facts if your baseline is "yeah cristi definitely scummiest on facts" and when pressed for facts come back with "yeah, let me get back to yu on that."

So seriously, fucking bring it. Tunnel me with everything you've got.

But in terms of your post, on purely logical/factual matters.
1) Does it matter in the ***** slightest if you think it's a strong post? No. The question is does bler believe it's a strong post, not whether Stan does. So sure, hang on for a few and I'll tell you why I liked it for reals.
2) Half of your explanations for things all game are evasions or half-truths. The reason I've town read you all game has never been because you laid cards on the table, but because of the pattern of what you respond to/don't, and what you reveal/conceal. Your footsteps leave traces, even if you're rarely explicit.

In terms of where I'm at, I've been giving you the side-eye all day because I was getting this ping that you were working an angle. That post I said was "strong" was the first post that felt like your old voice that I'd town read all game.

I don't even give a shit about the details of the arguments - because again, you usually conceal more than you reveal. It was the same tone I'd liked, and it seemed angle-free. Just chatting.

On why I'm pressing you on cristi specifically:

Go back to 1676 (EOD2), you made a comment that cristi looks townie.

Go down the line 4 posts and trent votes cristi at EOD2 for...who knows what.

D3 you come in voting cristi and sliding trent "lower" on the suspect list for...unspecified reasons and maybe he doesn't have balls? Thus me using the word "progression" earlier, which I kinda worried I'd tipped my hand on, but no, not only do you not explain why cristi is scummiest now, you sure in hell don't explain how you got from townie cristi then to scummiest cristi now.

Maybe cristi is scum and town!you/trent are both just nailing a great read that...came from out of your butt. But pardon me if I'm suspicious that looks like a mighty convenient coincidence. Maybe it's you/trent/nacho and you try to pick up a 4th vote. Maybe it's you/x and you rely on a free trent vote plus whoever to hammer.

Seriously, it's fireworks for me. And maybe I'm paranoid but of the 4 you were the one who said you had a reason and notes (and I'm not holding my breath on yogs or nacho at this point regardless of alignment), and then you've got shit.

So yeah. Piss off.

Tunnel me. Please.

Whoa bro chillax

Bro I'm not even voting cristi. (Yet?) Why are you so insistent on the disappearing kill being town?

Firstly, you need to take a deep breath and a step back. Alright.

Did I ever say my cristi read was factual? Pretty sure I didn't. I'm not sure of anything in this freaking whack gamestate, like I've said. I feel that there are at least semi-compelling reasons other players can be cleared as SK or wolf, except none of those feel good when applied to cristi. Or you, to some extent, especially given your claim, but I've at least caught town on you. I'm trying to resist the impulse to tunnel you, just FYI. The fact that you blew up in my face (lol) is admittedly throwing me for a loop here. Well yeah because sometimes it's important to know if someone's BSing their opinions? I mean. If it were someone else's post in question, would we be having this discussion? Fair enough, and this may legitimately be some stylistic dissonance. (Though. Perhaps you overestimate the amount of thought that goes on behind my play. I do play with more intent than a lot of people think at first, but analysis was never my strength.) Was that so hard? ;___;

(I may in fact be working an angle, but it's the "what the hell is going on in this game angle".) I actually forgot about that (my excuse is that I basically ignored this game overnight) but that was largely (I think) made in a paradigm where Dess was sole scumteam. I dunno if there's any overt examples of this but a lot of my townreads have slipped in light of new developments. I don't think that it's a stretch to infer the associative context. Is that sufficient? I'm not entirely sure the idea of progression made it from your post into my brain. I'll blame the sleep deprivation for that (Stanari is a responsible human being, she swears). Do you have a case for cristi as not-wolf or not-SK (yes, I still think it's an SK) that you can remind me of? The halflife of my brain cells is...very short.

Honestly you're reminding me how much I disliked trent lol. Hey, I never said it was a good reason! Or that I took good notes. But you asked for a reason. Not at this juncture, sorry. Fighting you'd be too much work anyway 8D

Holy cow...not use to someone defending me like that. I do find it interesting on the suspicion growing toward me. Anyway, if all three of unclaimed will claim, then claims make sense. I'll go where ever you all decide.

Hey, nacho - it would be great if you actually provided a reason for your vote.

Did I miss Stanari's vote or is it a matter of an intent to vote?

I haven't even intented* yet, let alone actually voted.

*Depends on how one defines intent.

Not sure Nacho is down to claim mmm? So would rather wait until there's something like consensus.

I'd like a mass claim actually.

I was legit pissed. Took a 50 minute walk to mostly calm down. Still kinda pissed when I sat back down, but appreciate the measured, thoughtful response. ;)



The weird thing is trent isn't voting her either, despite ending D2 on her, and I'm pretty sure he's posted a few times since mid-day. I just kinda assumed he was.


I have no certainty that it is, but I'm penduluming off your suggestion that it "could by LYLO if the disappearer is teamed with wolves." I mean, I come up with some unlikely probabilities, but that doesn't even make coherent sense as a possibility.

If it's 1-team their teammate kills them off? If it's two teams one team gets a whatever and the other doesn't? I mean, in both cases (RW / Brasas) it at least looks like legit scum-hunting, right? Whatever the wincon.

My intent, if there is a claim (or moreso full claim) is to try and look at how the pieces might fit in the puzzle. Maybe it's town, maybe it isn't, but I'm not going to start with the assumption it isn't given the kill pattern and flavor. And yes, trent was the benevolent SK in my game, so flavor isn't a lock.


No u. Oh wait, that's actually good advice. My bad. ;)


Not trying to be a dick, but I think I'd have to get baked to follow that. Are you saying if you change a variable the outcome is probably different? Yes....?



Well, no. But at the time I thought we were moving towards you/cristi/nacho claiming so it seemed silly to nitpick over what might turn out to be nothing if the claims played a variety of different ways that made it moot.

But you decided to make it an issue, and nacho seems to have blown up the mass claim anyway so there wasn't any point in waiting.


Fair enough.


Well, you explained why you didn't catch the "progression" mention, and sure, I assumed the D2/N2 flips were a factor, I just wanted you to walk me through, y'know, that associative context.



Well, the only one who's clear on SK is Tammy. Everyone else is pretty equally viable. So sure, if we're SK hunting cristi is as good a prospect as anyone. I'm not sure we're set on setup enough to just laze into that random potshotting, though. As you note, maybe it is mylo/lylo, maybe it isn't.


I only have partial notes on cristi despite having re-read her post-daybreak/pre-morning, but sure, I'll re-read and make a case tonight or more likely tomorrow. But if it's trent (or yogs) v cristi I'm picking trent pretty much every time. Nacho...who knows.

FWIW, 99% of the time I don't make notes, but I did jot a few things down reading brasas N2, and Dess D2. I think the big thing (in my memory) was that cristi's EOD1 post was basically "1 of wyrm/rw is scum" and I just don't see, even if you want to make that clear a claim, then following through and knocking off wyrm, though sure, maybe she potted quad instead.

Of course, RW didn't live any longer than wyrm's flip, so we can't PROVE she would have followed through, but she's pretty cagey as scum. I just don't see her/RW as w/w, and even if she didn't vote dess, I liked the way she handled the votecount/analysis. Of the players alive, yogs/me/cristi/trent were all not on that dess wagon. So I'm really not clear on where in any jumble of dess/brasas/lift/rw she'd fit. Trent is a bit easier to imagine.

Plus, again, the practical detail that cristi claiming is potentially also nacho claiming since one of the two is the purificatorer unless you are pulling off one hell of a bluff. So if we (collectively) were going to vote cristi to the point of claiming, just be aware it might be a 2 for 1. lol

Semantics are important with me :P I meant a 3P disappearer whose wincon doesn't require wolf annihilation teaming up with wolves to off remaining town. Unsure about RW but I think Brasas could have been a kill on a vocal, astute player. But we can't really know the intent there. Certainly I'm open to the possibility that they're town, but I have trouble with that idea. I'm asking if you objected to me questioning you on that because it was my post, and if yes pointing out why that was silly IMO. The nitpicking is for the benefit of my reading you!

But you decided to make it an issue, and nacho seems to have blown up the mass claim anyway so there wasn't any point in waiting. I can't tell if I answered your question satisfactorily. Fair enough. Reasons why I hate not having a full picture of night actions: a lot. (Night chess is a pain in the behind.) Although, that's fair. Fair enough. Dunno. Dess/RW/Lif + cristi/Brasas/? maybe? Am I trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? Personally I am okay with that but I understand your objection. My play: 99% obsessive chatter, 1% actual insight.

1) Maybe, but Brasas would've been the first person I looked at D3, and was the only player I re-read in full N2. I didn't make the RW/Dess kills, but those are the two very people who were highest on my radar each night, so it's easy for me to see the role as hunting and thus probably town-leaning.

But yes, any neutral party with survivor-like wincon is potentially open to extortion in end-game. But that seems a pretty big assumption at this point not just re: the role's alignment but why it would get to kill people and yet still essentially just be survivor?

2) The funny thing is I don't even really "object," I just thinking if we're mass claiming, let's mass claim. If we're not mass claiming why are we fishing in one of the two spots that will lead to an all-but-complete claim. It seems silly/illogical to me. If unclaimed-Nacho is town/neutral, scum are going to diagnose it anyway even if the role isn't cristi's. If Nacho is scum, a) they already surmise it's cristi, and b) we've let Nacho skate another day.

There's like, zero upside.

3) No, but I'm going to bed and want to forget the game even exists, so for the moment I don't care.

4) I still don't really follow that. What specifically am I objecting to in this sentence?

5) You want me to nitpick you so you can read me? As a general rule I tend to go down bad paths when I tunnel/nitpick. (See: Ix timeline post - though frankly once he claimed his thought process made more sense to me. I recall my first game as cop I really wanted to no lynch too)

6) So I went through about the first 1300 posts. Made a page of notes. Could just data dump, but for now I'll spare you.

Cristi's #1 scum tell is a lot of IioA and superficial musing. But through D1 she's pretty consistently analyzing, asking hard questions, making it fairly easy to follow her progressions. She's poking at agent (until he subs out), poking at Lift, poking at you/yogs. Here's my note on first post I noted that crossed her/brasas significantly:

"#1230 Calls out Brasas’ quote about “dess always lurking” though unattributed. Still it brought several eyes (incl. mine) back to an odd quote that had gone without comment on first pass. If you’re w/w with brasas do you invite other people to go back and look at what appears to be a slip/fake-defense that got away clean?"

And I don't even think that was the strongest post overall, it's just the one that pertains to brasas. I quite liked her push back on my Ix vote (600), not just that she did it, but how. She comes around to voting Ix in 734 (for evasiveness) but in the process explains pretty clearly why that vote and not 4-5 others on her radar. She votes babark and explains who looks better/worse depending on the flip (hint: RW looks most suspicious if babs is town).

I mean, whoever it is we're looking for at this point (well, excepting yogs who's skating precisely on how little he's doing) it's probably someone playing a pretty clean game, but I think cristi's game has been really sharp. Through that stopping point, the two things that bugged me: 1) the drealmer vote (basically a throwaway), and 2) asking wyrm to clarify his mason claim (1041), but unlike Lift who asked repeatedly, at least so far I only see her asking the 1x. She did ask me a related question, but I thought that was fair game.

Wasn't it wyrm who was poo-pooing on the notion of scum!dess and scum!Lift and actively campaigning against the wagon? Here was wyrm's apparent reads list:

Vote RWarehall. (right)
Vote Stanari. (??)
Vote QuadrAlien? (wrong)

Unvote bler144 (right)
Unvote TammyTown. (right)
Unvote Ixamyakxim. (right)
Unvote babark. (right)
Unvote Dessimu. (wrong)
Unvote Lift. (wrong)

I'm not particularly inclined to hold people (incl you) to whether they tone read Dess correctly or not. Tammy made the best case on him, most of us apparently ignored it, and at the end even she started to waffle.

Plus scum seem now to have had some ability to manipulate the wagon, so why doesn't she do what Brasas appears to have? Get on the wagon, get credit, and still avert the lynch through magic!

Any other questions in there you want me to tackle? I'm half-asleep at this point and not inclined to go back through tonight.


Heh. My play might be described as 90% running around making a mess, and 10% trying to clean it up/make sense of it.

You keep saying I never explained my vote on cristi, I did that here

I don't play this game like most everyone else it seems. I don't look at every little thing someone says or does and try to figure out why they did or said it that way. I play the game more on feel than anything and I tend to be more reactionary. If I sat here and try to figure out why everyone says or does everything they do in this game it would drive me nuts and stress me out to no end, so I don't do it.

For me it's like a song or a person I can't rember, I am sure I know it but it escapes me, so I put it on the back burner and go about my regular routine. Then all of a sudden I'll be doing someting and it will hit me, oh yeah that's what the song was or that's who that was. I tend to do the same in the game. I'll read what everyone posts and if something jumps out at me I'll ask about it, otherwise I tend to wait to see how things start to unfold. Over time a pattern emerges for me and I get a feeling on someone, and the bad part is I'm usually right but second guess myself and get it wrong.

I had a feeling about Agent early on and then he got replaced with RW and I let it go. I had a feeling about Dess early on too, but I bought into his defense and let it go. I have a feeling about cristi or possibly yogs, but more so cristi. Am I right, I don't know, but I"m tired of second guessing myself and floundering all over the place.

I'll put it like this, I'm not going to be voting Tammy at any point this game and will find it hard to vote bler. Anyone else I will vote for, but I'm not going to follow the crowd just because either. My gut says cristi is scum so I will park my vote there. I still think she is scum hiding in plain sight.

Vote cristigale

Jiminy bler, what crawled up your butt and bit your colon? I don't see anything tiliting in what Stanari is doing. Word to the wise, though, that's a scum!bler trait. I'll just pretend it didn't happen.

...


OK, so some mechanical thing caused the no-lynch Day 1. Fair enough.

...


Derailing scum trains is well within trent's scum range. He scums with no fear; no regrets. He's one of the few who can truly enjoy being a bad guy. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's well within his range.


...

Vote cristigale

You claim please.