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General discussionNo Man's Sky isn't fully DRM-free(610 posts)(610 posts)
(610 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 08, 2020
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JAAHAS: I said most developers, not all and unfortunately some of them seem to be so used to implementing their multiplayer support through the Steam API that they would rather hack in the Galaxy API to replace that than start from scratch.
I'm talking about developers who are releasing games on GOG at all. Again, the vast majority of them already support DRM-free multiplayer, and a bunch more would support it if GOG removed their DRM. None of this means having to start from scratch. Also the few that require third party services generally don't actually depend on them for much. Adding a way to bypass that and form a game directly between players is hardly starting from scratch. It's comparable to adding the options menu and making keys rebindable, if that.

Turning a DRM'ed single player game DRM-free only requires cutting out the DRM and in most cases you would not be able to tell if that has been done or not if I would only allow you to access the game from it's main menu whereas some forms of multiplayer would only become "DRM-free" by being replaced with some more DRM-free friendly form of multiplayer, which would take a lot more resources to do and would become an additional thing to support, so we are talking about many orders of magnitude greater expenses than what you seem to be thinking.
Again, most games here already have DRM-friendly multiplayer. But for whatever reason (actually I can guess: control, drm), the publisher wants you to first log in with their (or GOG's) service. Removing that login check and allowing a direct connection between players is hardly more work than cutting out DRM. It doesn't take much resources. Adding the DRM in the first place required way more resources.

Actually, my point was that regardless of how much one might care about multiplayer, some forms of it may have the online only disease spread too deep into their design
That is not true at all for most games here. Very few games here have multiplayer spread deep into their design. But some still have DRM.

This isn't about not caring at all about multiplayer, but acknowledging that over the years the old school multiplayer we would prefer has "evolved" into something else that can't always be reasonably expected to work DRM-free no matter how much we would wish for that
Sorry, I don't see any evidence of that. Old school multiplayer isn't gone at all but these games today require you to authenticate with third party services before they let you connect. That's not a big thing to work around.

WoW
Yawn, please let's not talk about MMORPGs and other such games that aren't here today and aren't coming here tomorrow. That's a complete straw man. Let's talk about games that are actually here but require third party authentication for no good reason. For example, Torchlight 2.
Post edited October 08, 2020 by clarry
Posted October 09, 2020
It seems that NMS offline installers have been updated to version 3.03_Origins_64766
https://www.nomanssky.com/2020/10/origins-patch-3-03/

If anyone has the game installed through offline installers and has the patience to investigate if this changes anything on the "online activation" issue, please do so.
Thanks in advance.
Post edited October 09, 2020 by karnak1
Posted October 09, 2020
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karnak1: It seems that NMS offline installers have been updated to version 3.03_Origins_64766
https://www.nomanssky.com/2020/10/origins-patch-3-03/

If anyone has the game installed through offline installers and has the patience to investigate if this changes anything on the "online activation" issue, please do so.
Thanks in advance.
Just checked, no change.
Posted October 09, 2020
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karnak1: It seems that NMS offline installers have been updated to version 3.03_Origins_64766
https://www.nomanssky.com/2020/10/origins-patch-3-03/

If anyone has the game installed through offline installers and has the patience to investigate if this changes anything on the "online activation" issue, please do so.
Thanks in advance.
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Sea-Ra: Just checked, no change.
Thank you for checking it.
Posted October 09, 2020
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So this was updated and still doesn't resolve the DRM issue?

This isn't a good look for you GOG, this game should be delisted til HG get their shit together.
Posted October 10, 2020
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ReynardFox: So this was updated and still doesn't resolve the DRM issue?

This isn't a good look for you GOG, this game should be delisted til HG get their shit together.
When GOG were informed about the issue, more than two weeks ago, their reaction was to add the following line to NMS's game page:

"The game features online components introduced in updates (SYNTHESIS, BYTEBEAT, LIVING SHIP, EXO MECH, CROSSPLAY, DESOLATION and ORIGINS) that require Internet connection."

which to me implies that they have pretty much resigned, willingly or not, to it being part of the game. I have not heard of any indication that there is any plan to change that.

From my POV, it's the same thing as when GOG removes XP and Vista from the list of a game's supported operating systems. They don't do it because they plan to work on re-adding this support in the future; they do it because they don't plan to do so.
Posted October 10, 2020
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mrkgnao: From my POV, it's the same thing as when GOG removes XP and Vista from the list of a game's supported operating systems. They don't do it because they plan to work on re-adding this support in the future; they do it because they don't plan to do so.
Sadly I have to agree with that assessment.
Posted October 10, 2020
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mrkgnao: "The game features online components introduced in updates (SYNTHESIS, BYTEBEAT, LIVING SHIP, EXO MECH, CROSSPLAY, DESOLATION and ORIGINS) that require Internet connection."

which to me implies that they have pretty much resigned, willingly or not, to it being part of the game. I have not heard of any indication that there is any plan to change that.

From my POV, it's the same thing as when GOG removes XP and Vista from the list of a game's supported operating systems. They don't do it because they plan to work on re-adding this support in the future; they do it because they don't plan to do so.
They removed XP and Vista because those two OSes were, for all intent and purpose, dead, you cannot really expect them to continue support those OSes when even Microsoft stop supporting them. For the line they added it makes sense for them to do so, when the game was originally released four years ago it didn't include any online / multiplayer features, those features were added recently so it make sense to update the game page to reflect that.

Concerning the main issue, two weeks is not that long, they need first to evaluate what exactly is the issue, whenever it is just peoples complaining that the online multiplayer is online (which I guess happen quite often) or if it's really a part of single player that is locked behind an online requirement, then they need to discuss with HG to find a solution and finally HG, if they agree to, needs to implement it.
Post edited October 10, 2020 by Gersen
Posted October 10, 2020
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mrkgnao: "The game features online components introduced in updates (SYNTHESIS, BYTEBEAT, LIVING SHIP, EXO MECH, CROSSPLAY, DESOLATION and ORIGINS) that require Internet connection."

which to me implies that they have pretty much resigned, willingly or not, to it being part of the game. I have not heard of any indication that there is any plan to change that.

From my POV, it's the same thing as when GOG removes XP and Vista from the list of a game's supported operating systems. They don't do it because they plan to work on re-adding this support in the future; they do it because they don't plan to do so.
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Gersen: They removed XP and Vista because those two OSes were, for all intent and purpose, dead, you cannot really expect them to continue support those OSes when even Microsoft stop supporting them. For the line they added it makes sense for them to do so, when the game was originally released four years ago it didn't include any online / multiplayer features, those features were added recently so it make sense to update the game page to reflect that.

Concerning the main issue, two weeks is not that long, they need first to evaluate what exactly is the issue, whenever it is just peoples complaining that the online multiplayer is online (which I guess happen quite often) or if it's really a part of single player that is locked behind an online requirement, then they need to discuss with HG to find a solution and finally HG, if they agree to, needs to implement it.
I believe you didn't understand my analogy. I was not complaining about why they removed XP/Vista support at all. I was just stating that for the most part, when GOG finally makes a change to the game page, it usually --- with some exceptions --- means that they are done with the issue, not that they are actively trying to improve it. That's all.

I certainly hope you are right.
Post edited October 10, 2020 by mrkgnao
Posted October 11, 2020
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Kyousuke.: This is so wrong: the publisher can decide the timeframe in which denuvo does checks, lords of the fallen and dragon age inquisition had absurdly high frequency checks.

Not trying to argue with you btw, just wanted to clarify this about that snake oil crap.
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Coreda: Er, thanks for the additional info but snake oil crap? I said it was my own experience ('ime'). In all the Denuvo games I've played (about 4) that has been roughly the time it periodically has requested an online check after being in Steam's offline mode. If some games check more frequently then that's hardly a good thing either, however I was simply responding to someone making the half-joke/half-informative post that Denuvo only checks once.
interesting, how they know how much time passed? is there some kinda of timer coded in the game maybe?
Posted October 12, 2020
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clarry: Yawn, please let's not talk about MMORPGs and other such games that aren't here today and aren't coming here tomorrow. That's a complete straw man. Let's talk about games that are actually here but require third party authentication for no good reason.
But that is the direction where the modern multiplayer support is heading and what got me dragged into posting in this thread in the first place was the same old arguments about DRM'ed multiplayer on GOG which always seem to boil into similar absurdity like one side accusing the other for not caring about "sports" at all if they disagree that (all) sports would become better if we would agree to limit all sports equipment to what ancient Greeks had available.

At least with sports I could have a far easier time to get such an accuser to either specify what kind of sports they are talking about or if they really are advocating that even biking should be done by running, whereas with multiplayer the all or nothing camp can always pretend that fixing foundational design decisions in modern multiplayer would not take too much time and effort to fix even long after a developer has finished implementing their design.

Anyways, we should focus on what can be done within reason (no major changes to core multiplayer design) and try to predict any worrying future threats from new online features like for example the on the fly multiplayer support within the single player mode possibly introducing the pressure to encrypt savegames as an attempt to prevent cheating which I would hope that we would all agree to demand that we should be allowed to at least decrypt our saves for a permanent single player only mode and preferably also allowed to play less public decrypted multiplayer with our friends.

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Truth007: interesting, how they know how much time passed? is there some kinda of timer coded in the game maybe?
Unless you are prepared to constantly set the computer's clock back to a point you made a back up image of your OS, restore it from that image and start a new game each time the DRM forced you do the previous steps while being offline all that time, I would not expect to be able to fool any DRM designed by someone with even a fracture of my imagination and that is assuming that you don't have any other partitions with "future" timestamps revealing what you are doing...
Posted October 12, 2020
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JAAHAS: But that is the direction where the modern multiplayer support is heading
But that's not the issue. I'm not talking about these games! I'm talking about games that have very traditional multiplayer *with* DRM. These games aren't gone, these games are still being released. I take issue with their DRM, and you go on and on some other imaginary games that aren't here. You're 100% missing the point.

To make an analogy: suppose game developers get too lazy to implement rebindable keys (and I complain about that). Well yes, some of them are already that lazy. You can argue that that's where modern games today are headed because consoles blah blah yada yada and analog sticks and motion controllers yada blada. That's 100% irrelevant when these games are actually released for PC and actually support keyboard & mouse input.

This is the situation now. That someone someone is making augmented reality games or MMORPGs (and fwiw there's no reason you can't make a MMORPG without DRM) is no justification for games here today having DRM on their multiplayer, just as someone making console games for Wii is no justification for PC games not having rebindable keys.

And fwiw I don't agree that's where modern multiplayer is heading. It's just one new thing on the market, and that doesn't mean everything that came before is obsolete. Just as the mobile hype doesn't mean PCs are now obsolete. MMORPGs were a new thing two decades ago, doesn't mean the forms of multiplayer that existed before are gone.
Post edited October 12, 2020 by clarry
Posted October 12, 2020
This is a total bait and switch. If people put up with it more is sure to come. Looking at you Baldur's Gate III.
Posted October 12, 2020
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JAAHAS: But that is the direction where the modern multiplayer support is heading
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clarry: But that's not the issue. I'm not talking about these games! I'm talking about games that have very traditional multiplayer *with* DRM. These games aren't gone, these games are still being released. I take issue with their DRM, and you go on and on some other imaginary games that aren't here. You're 100% missing the point.

To make an analogy: suppose game developers get too lazy to implement rebindable keys (and I complain about that). Well yes, some of them are already that lazy. You can argue that that's where modern games today are headed because consoles blah blah yada yada and analog sticks and motion controllers yada blada. That's 100% irrelevant when these games are actually released for PC and actually support keyboard & mouse input.

This is the situation now. That someone someone is making augmented reality games or MMORPGs (and fwiw there's no reason you can't make a MMORPG without DRM) is no justification for games here today having DRM on their multiplayer, just as someone making console games for Wii is no justification for PC games not having rebindable keys.

And fwiw I don't agree that's where modern multiplayer is heading. It's just one new thing on the market, and that doesn't mean everything that came before is obsolete. Just as the mobile hype doesn't mean PCs are now obsolete. MMORPGs were a new thing two decades ago, doesn't mean the forms of multiplayer that existed before are gone.
I don't think he meant modern games as in service style games, he means multiplayer in general.
Posted October 13, 2020
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clarry: Yawn, please let's not talk about MMORPGs and other such games that aren't here today and aren't coming here tomorrow. That's a complete straw man. Let's talk about games that are actually here but require third party authentication for no good reason.
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JAAHAS: But that is the direction where the modern multiplayer support is heading... <snip>
You are right, but, you see, some people in this thread --- myself included --- find it hard to forget that GOG started as a company that positioned itself as standing against exactly these kinds of modern trends, such as single-player DRM (which is very much the direction modern gaming is headed) or multi-player DRM (which is also very much the direction modern gaming is headed) or regional pricing (which is again very much the direction modern gaming is headed), etc. Some of us --- myself included --- would have wanted GOG to continue maintaining those original stances of anti-single-player-DRM, anti-multi-player-DRM, anti-regional-pricing, etc. But I'm sure we're just being silly. We'll get over it and embrace "the direction modern gaming is headed", DRM, Galaxy and all --- or not.
Post edited October 13, 2020 by mrkgnao
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionNo Man's Sky isn't fully DRM-free(610 posts)(610 posts)
(610 posts)