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A closer look at the upcoming galactic playground

As we're drawing closer and closer to reaching <span class="bold">No Man's Sky</span>, we are being treated to more intriguing gameplay chunks that show off some of the most common player activities in this uncommonly vast and detailed universe.
Creator Sean Murray recently took IGN through a procedurally-generated frozen planet, poking at the flora and fauna, opening up new passages, marveling at the enigmatic structures, and even trading with aliens. Before flying back into the infinite space above.

If you've missed any of the past footage shown by the developers, keep watching and get ready to jump on the hype spaceship, then go ahead and <span class="bold">preorder the game here</span>:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/D-uMFHoF8VA?list=PL_OsMXj7Zay05UdYyECSNgt5EvBhLsfXs
Post edited April 13, 2016 by maladr0Id
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kohlrak: I do hope we all realize that LAN and Internet are the same from programmer perspective. Other than some optimization, which steam and such can't do for you, it's the same.
Yes and no. The protocols are the same, true. But when programming for an internet based service, it's very common to create a server application that can be hosted but not distributed. The licensing required for hosting is completely and totally different than the licensing required to distribute something. Distribution either requires a lot more "from scratch" coding to replace open components, or a lot more lawyering to get distribution rights.

From a design perspective, it's much easier in most cases to create a peer-to-server application with a central database than a peer-to-peer application. Making this a LAN application in that architecture would require a dedicated server, which would probably require the user to stand up a Linux box (or VM).

In the specific case of No Man's Sky, I'm not sure LAN play would even have any value. When you start the game you are placed in a random location at the edge of the galaxy. Even with thousands of players you are only occasionally expected to encounter a planet someone else has visited. Playing locally on a LAN with only a handful of people would basically be identical to playing single player offline, because you'd probably never encounter anybody.

They could have a "Local LAN, small galaxy" mode, where they shrink the galaxy to 100 planets or something. That would be kinda fun. But unless the developer sees either a financial incentive or a passion from fans for something like that, there's no reason to spend the hundreds of hours it would take to create it.

$.02

(Enterprise Level Software Engineer)
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kohlrak: I do hope we all realize that LAN and Internet are the same from programmer perspective. Other than some optimization, which steam and such can't do for you, it's the same.
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barleyguy: Yes and no. The protocols are the same, true. But when programming for an internet based service, it's very common to create a server application that can be hosted but not distributed. The licensing required for hosting is completely and totally different than the licensing required to distribute something. Distribution either requires a lot more "from scratch" coding to replace open components, or a lot more lawyering to get distribution rights.

From a design perspective, it's much easier in most cases to create a peer-to-server application with a central database than a peer-to-peer application. Making this a LAN application in that architecture would require a dedicated server, which would probably require the user to stand up a Linux box (or VM).

In the specific case of No Man's Sky, I'm not sure LAN play would even have any value. When you start the game you are placed in a random location at the edge of the galaxy. Even with thousands of players you are only occasionally expected to encounter a planet someone else has visited. Playing locally on a LAN with only a handful of people would basically be identical to playing single player offline, because you'd probably never encounter anybody.

They could have a "Local LAN, small galaxy" mode, where they shrink the galaxy to 100 planets or something. That would be kinda fun. But unless the developer sees either a financial incentive or a passion from fans for something like that, there's no reason to spend the hundreds of hours it would take to create it.

$.02

(Enterprise Level Software Engineer)
The "Local LAN, small galaxy" version would be awesome with a save function. Friends could create societies there!

Thanks for the rest too. You're one of the reasons GOGs forum sometimes throws great value at its inhabitants. Thanks for that!
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Tarm: The "Local LAN, small galaxy" version would be awesome with a save function. Friends could create societies there!

Thanks for the rest too. You're one of the reasons GOGs forum sometimes throws great value at its inhabitants. Thanks for that!
This would be really nice, I agree. One of the reasons I backed Star Citizen is that aside from mostly doing single player I'd like to occasionally have a little exploration and bot-stomping amongst friends without having to deal with all the trolls, retards, and developer shenanigans that come with an MMOG (played Eve for years, I know how these things work). Roberts did this with Freelancer, he's doing it again with SC, and I'd really like to see more developers man up and accept that customers can have a good time beyond their constant fatherly gaze. Hello Games has already gone a long way there by making the server uploads a passive/secondary thing, hopefully they'll go all the way in a future revision.

edit: Should also note, HG has said that they're going to tackle live multiplayer in a future patch/expansion/whatever so if they're going to do it that's when I would expect to see it.
Post edited April 16, 2016 by NovusBogus
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trallyus: From what I remember the makers saying on the other videos , the online part of No Man's Sky only kicks in when you go to a beacon to upload your planetary finds, else most of the time you don't have to have an always online experience as that is why I bought it
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Trilarion: So what is the benefit of uploading my planetary finds? What If I don't want to upload them?
You basically get money I believe for new finds and when you upload new finds that basically means you discovered it first and your name will go on record as having discovered it.

From watching all the videos , I think the naming system was randomly generated most of the time as well too. At least that is what it looked like when showing off the naming of planets and creatures on the Cobert Show video I watched.

I also remember them saying they were going to implement a swear word filter in place that was not in place for the beta testers.

Even if you don't upload your new finds , you still get points/credits, whatever they call it for new discoveries that are new to you from the looks of the videos I saw.

IGN has a write up and many of the videos I watched to get the info from at
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/07/02/no-mans-sky-everything-you-need-to-know-ign-first

and HelloGames has a twitter account that is nice as well.


If your on the fence about the game just wait for others to play it and post real videos of their experiance instead of controlled play videos by the developer as if it's bad I am sure you will hear about it if your willing to wait.

Other then the stuff I learned from reading articles and watching a lot of videos like everyone else that is pretty much all I gleaned from the articles and videos.

Sorry for the late reply but I have been playing gog games instead of checking the forums a lot.
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kohlrak: I do hope we all realize that LAN and Internet are the same from programmer perspective. Other than some optimization, which steam and such can't do for you, it's the same.
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barleyguy: Yes and no. The protocols are the same, true. But when programming for an internet based service, it's very common to create a server application that can be hosted but not distributed. The licensing required for hosting is completely and totally different than the licensing required to distribute something. Distribution either requires a lot more "from scratch" coding to replace open components, or a lot more lawyering to get distribution rights.

From a design perspective, it's much easier in most cases to create a peer-to-server application with a central database than a peer-to-peer application. Making this a LAN application in that architecture would require a dedicated server, which would probably require the user to stand up a Linux box (or VM).

In the specific case of No Man's Sky, I'm not sure LAN play would even have any value. When you start the game you are placed in a random location at the edge of the galaxy. Even with thousands of players you are only occasionally expected to encounter a planet someone else has visited. Playing locally on a LAN with only a handful of people would basically be identical to playing single player offline, because you'd probably never encounter anybody.

They could have a "Local LAN, small galaxy" mode, where they shrink the galaxy to 100 planets or something. That would be kinda fun. But unless the developer sees either a financial incentive or a passion from fans for something like that, there's no reason to spend the hundreds of hours it would take to create it.

$.02

(Enterprise Level Software Engineer)
Why can't people who are friends start a lan game on the same planet or at least the same system? Why MUST it be random for anyone other than the initial player? It's also kind of a big deal as many indie games succeed today because of co-op. Sounds to me like multiplayer boils down to finding someone's planet, but you won't actually see the player, just some uploaded world. And if that's the case, how do we even know there will be multiplayer at all instead of some "you just didn't find anyone yet" excuse? Can we see the whole galaxy to know they won't "add planets" to keep us from running into each other? Is it really multiplayer if all we do is download someone else's maps?


EDIT: On the server thing, though, you kinda have a point. But for a game with these reqs it'd make sense to have dedicated servers, regardless, if there is true multiplayer. I don't see why, if they planned on it from the start, they don't take the minecraft approach: turn graphics and player off. Hosting should use the same EULA: there's no reason why a hosting company can't just buy the game like the rest of the customers, and i have yet to see a restriction on the number of times a game can be run at the same time on the same machine, and if they want to milk the hosts then they're going to run into the same issue minecraft is with it's realms thing: people are just learning how to host themselves, which might be for the best anyway. If you're afraid of complication, don't make things more complicated. There's nothing inherent about servers that says you must use a separate EULA.
Post edited April 17, 2016 by kohlrak
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kohlrak: On the server thing, though, you kinda have a point. But for a game with these reqs it'd make sense to have dedicated servers, regardless, if there is true multiplayer. I don't see why, if they planned on it from the start, they don't take the minecraft approach: turn graphics and player off. Hosting should use the same EULA: there's no reason why a hosting company can't just buy the game like the rest of the customers, and i have yet to see a restriction on the number of times a game can be run at the same time on the same machine, and if they want to milk the hosts then they're going to run into the same issue minecraft is with it's realms thing: people are just learning how to host themselves, which might be for the best anyway. If you're afraid of complication, don't make things more complicated. There's nothing inherent about servers that says you must use a separate EULA.
i think you misunderstand what I was talking about in regards to licensing. Generally, when someone builds a hosted application, they don't HAVE the legal rights necessary to distribute it. If you're hosting something, you can build an application that uses open source components with viral licenses for example. Doing so can save as much as half the development time it takes to build a server application.

So, there IS nothing inherent to a server application that says you have to use a separate EULA. But I wasn't talking about a EULA in the first place. I was talking about the team developing the application acquiring the licenses necessary to distribute the server application to users. In order to do that, they either have to build things from scratch that they wouldn't have needed to, or they need to go to the authors of other components and get licenses from them to distribute to end users.

Hope that makes sense...
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kohlrak: On the server thing, though, you kinda have a point. But for a game with these reqs it'd make sense to have dedicated servers, regardless, if there is true multiplayer. I don't see why, if they planned on it from the start, they don't take the minecraft approach: turn graphics and player off. Hosting should use the same EULA: there's no reason why a hosting company can't just buy the game like the rest of the customers, and i have yet to see a restriction on the number of times a game can be run at the same time on the same machine, and if they want to milk the hosts then they're going to run into the same issue minecraft is with it's realms thing: people are just learning how to host themselves, which might be for the best anyway. If you're afraid of complication, don't make things more complicated. There's nothing inherent about servers that says you must use a separate EULA.
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barleyguy: i think you misunderstand what I was talking about in regards to licensing. Generally, when someone builds a hosted application, they don't HAVE the legal rights necessary to distribute it. If you're hosting something, you can build an application that uses open source components with viral licenses for example. Doing so can save as much as half the development time it takes to build a server application.

So, there IS nothing inherent to a server application that says you have to use a separate EULA. But I wasn't talking about a EULA in the first place. I was talking about the team developing the application acquiring the licenses necessary to distribute the server application to users. In order to do that, they either have to build things from scratch that they wouldn't have needed to, or they need to go to the authors of other components and get licenses from them to distribute to end users.

Hope that makes sense...
Minecraft proved they don't have to. It's how it's usually done, but if you tie the same EULA to the thing, you can strip components from the playable game and save even more time than building from scratch. The license that covers the game would then cover the server, and there would be no need to modify the license they already have, nor would they have to acquire any new licenses. Developing from scratch, yes. Better yet, if you're willing to give into a lower end product to please customers without costing excessive dev time, don't strip down the executable, but give certain command line options to turn certain components off.
Looking good.
I'm more interested, are there any limitations to planets' surface? I mean, if player would just walk/run in one direction... will he meet the end of the map or something, or will it be literally endless? If it's the second thing, I'm VERY happy with that.
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ilaeder: I'm more interested, are there any limitations to planets' surface? I mean, if player would just walk/run in one direction... will he meet the end of the map or something, or will it be literally endless? If it's the second thing, I'm VERY happy with that.
They're planets, so like in real life or Kerbal Space Program, you can circumnavigate them. They're also supposed to be as big as planets, so on foot that'd take quite a while.

Though, that sparked an idea in me, "Journey to the Center of the Earth"; I wonder if that's possible (I reckon it is).
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barleyguy: i think you misunderstand what I was talking about in regards to licensing. Generally, when someone builds a hosted application, they don't HAVE the legal rights necessary to distribute it. If you're hosting something, you can build an application that uses open source components with viral licenses for example. Doing so can save as much as half the development time it takes to build a server application.

So, there IS nothing inherent to a server application that says you have to use a separate EULA. But I wasn't talking about a EULA in the first place. I was talking about the team developing the application acquiring the licenses necessary to distribute the server application to users. In order to do that, they either have to build things from scratch that they wouldn't have needed to, or they need to go to the authors of other components and get licenses from them to distribute to end users.

Hope that makes sense...
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kohlrak: Minecraft proved they don't have to. It's how it's usually done, but if you tie the same EULA to the thing, you can strip components from the playable game and save even more time than building from scratch. The license that covers the game would then cover the server, and there would be no need to modify the license they already have, nor would they have to acquire any new licenses. Developing from scratch, yes. Better yet, if you're willing to give into a lower end product to please customers without costing excessive dev time, don't strip down the executable, but give certain command line options to turn certain components off.
You're still not understanding what I'm talking about, at all. I'm not going to try to explain it a third time.
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barleyguy: You're still not understanding what I'm talking about, at all. I'm not going to try to explain it a third time.
Always entertaining when "common practices" tied up to conventional distribution models (invented less than 10 years ago) suddenly is turned into the only possible solution technically.

But yeah, of course you're right. There's no licensing schema that will force HelloGames to disallow users from creating universe instances on their own computer, or a different server of their choice. If it was, it would have to be tied to an existing service ecosystem, for example. Although even if it ran on MS Exchange ... hehe, sorry... even if it ran on Exchange, it would probably not be illegal to use parts of the foundation and license the use of that as a separate product tied to this particular release. It'd cost money, but it wouldn't be anything actually preventing you from deploying it in a different usage-scenario.

What is very typical, though, is that you tend to leverage existing snippets of code that does something in a particular way, and end up favoring similar solutions compared to what has been used before. And it's not like it makes a lot of sense to spend time on creating anything complex or serverless for maintaining the universe status, like a cross-platform cluster-distribution of names for creatures and general exploration status.

Not that it would take a huge amount of effort to do it, but you would essentially spending time on something that removes or "unprotects" the distributor's statistics and user-status. And if you want to deploy this on consoles, you would have to go through the console-makers' conventions as well. So since we're talking about Sony here, this is something you would likely have had to plan several years in advance. Like people mention, the always on model's main purpose is to log how much time people spend on certain games, to have something to go on when it comes to user-base and future purchases and interests of such and such players. And it gives "value" to the title in form of documenting that people spend so and so much time on it.

Having deployment control is really a very secondary concern - UBISoft, for example, took the distribution problematic with piracy seriously, and have simply spent ridiculous amounts of money on making their system inconvenient and cumbersome. Very similar to their approach with Starforce back in the day - the installation essentially blacklisting software and devices on random computers that prevented the installs from completing. I know, because I used to be part of a filesharing portal admin, that the amount of people who started pirating games because of Ubisoft titles very specifically (after they owned the games) is .. significant. It's not anecdotal evidence from talking to a couple of people, it's a look at the popularity of crack/nocd releases next to the full release purely statistically. You could object that perhaps people just downloaded the discs and shared them offline, and that this is why the nocd/offline package releases stayed. But the idea that someone keeps sharing the nocd release for the last patch several years after the release, and then shares the disc on a different sharing network, just so us other pirates wouldn't be able to see it in our statistics is.. a bit too fantastic.

And talking to Ubisoft folks does usually lead to them admitting that they don't actually have any faith that the DRM system prevents piracy (in fact they fear the opposite, like it is possible to document they have reason to be worried about). But that they keep the DRM/online portal model there anyway, because:
1. It allows them to document their users and their purchase habits.
2. It allows them to target their users with advertisement more effectively (whatever that means).
3. It allows them to predict how much a title will sell (with better precision than when scrying the future in tealeaves).
4. It allows them to integrate microtransactions in the actual game.

Last one of course being the big one. If you can deploy a title and make sure that you can let people spend their phonymoney (bought by real money) in the game, this is a salespoint to people who buy games for their kids. If.. you have established on beforehand that microtransactions must exist. And it then makes it possible to "differentiate" the cost of the title more fairly to people who spend more time with it. Like.. the guys who just buy the title for full price gets to play most of it. And the ones who really like it get to spend more than full price! It's brilliant.

Positive aspects of the always online content portal schema, that we of course were sold on in the long long-ago was such things as that you could log in on one computer, have "cloud saves" as it's been known later on, and then resume your title on some other device.

(.... broke the forums again, sorry..)
(cont'd)..

And some companies actually do provide that now (although notable exceptions being games-companies, who tend to insure splits between platforms, and have partial syncs of achievements and progress that generally serves literally no purpose for the user (but again allows the developer to see how much progress people who bought the game made, generally). Like Spotify or Netflix, for example, by saving your progress in an episode or a playlist or songs, and so on, between devices. And that's useful - and it of course is not reliant on a locked content portal to actually provide that in any way.

In the same way, that multiplayer games tend to be routed through a server-side service is actually not a very efficient way to do it, or a very solid way to make sure users get a stable service. In fact, there's nothing nefarious about why MMO games tend have all their communication routed through a status server, where the account is updated fifteen times every second, etc. Instead it's usually because the developer just don't care to plan for when they actually would need to run account syncs. I.e., let the players spend in-game currency and earn events offline for hours and hours, and then validate local content to the server during transactions or syncs - perfectly possible. But it would put certain limitations on when interactions between online players could take place. So why not just have some application phone home every second, and log your every step on the server, right? No one minds until the servers burst and the entire network is dead because someone overloaded a node in a particular region at, say, peak hours.

Take Battlefield, for example - brilliant example. The actual server structure in that game is extremely efficient. But to actually play the game, the progress and unlock status had to be synced at the start and the beginning towards EA's rickety backend. So BF3, for example, was offline for large parts of the weeks after release because the stat-server backend broke. It still regularly breaks and has to be rebooted - and they know exactly what the problem is, other than that their lookup routines and database structure is essentially one step removed from the oracle example database. But they won't do anything with it, because they're already paying for upkeep to maintain the current system (by rebooting it every week). And paying to upgrade it would just be a cost with no return, as user-satisfaction is measured in "yay, I can now log on again - thank you so much, EA, I love you now".


(more rant)...

So there's no push from anyone to actually provide a better service, and also very little knowledge about what the options are in the developer clusters they wish to leverage solutions from. That being of course very cheap providers of quick and dirty solutions on project contracts - because they take so much less money for developing this than people who actually know what they're doing. Such as DICE, who developed the game and the netcode for their games here, that actually worked. And who made recommendations for infrastructure backbone that EA then ignored. You know, things like that happen.

But the end product had to be a portal service, where everyone connect through EA's backserver before they get to log on to the game. In practice, most of the traffic doesn't actually go through the portal at all. But they had to tie it to the EA accounts because reasons. So that's why you're not allowed to take DICE's very good server code, put that on your private server, and then offer that server to public play or to private play, like we did back in the old days.. you know.... 2005.

Anyway - about No Man's Sky: so let's assume that it makes sense to have a central universe server where everyone post their naming of the planets and the species, and log in their progress. And where trade prices and gear (new gear, updates even, universe maintenance, patching, faction movement, genocides, wars, ecological disasters, space station progress, etc.) would be run through, for all active users.


(last part, I promise...)

Would that prevent Hello Games from creating a lan instance where one player hosts a normal game, and a second player piggiback on their instance? Of course not. Would there be anything stopping Hello Games from making an offline universe, and seamlessly integrate that into an online mode that people might skip into whenever they feel like? No. Would it be possible to have a lan or private universe play that spans the whole of the galaxy? No. Their model doesn't actually fetch planet location or specific information from a universe server, and also doesn't populate the planets via the universe server. So there's nothing stopping them from doing that logically or towards some game-flow perspective. And there's certainly no licensing problem involved if they write the communication protocols between the clients to the project, even if that's done with licensed software.
Post edited April 18, 2016 by nipsen
So yeah, even if the universe server ran through Exchange, they could still add a lan component and not really have any reason to separate the second (or third) lan-client from doing updates to the cloud. It's more of an interesting question that - could this entire thing be upgraded in some way to eventually allow you to see other ships in real-time - that's an interesting question. That you might possibly have an expanded online play component where you gather for missions on known choke-points within warp-range, eventually, later in the evolution of the game, after tech is found that makes warps viable, or something of that sort.

But please don't come up with fairytales about how a server-side maintenance universe is actually necessary in online games, either from a technical or a licensing point of view, separately or jumbled together. I mean, that's absurd.
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kohlrak: Minecraft proved they don't have to. It's how it's usually done, but if you tie the same EULA to the thing, you can strip components from the playable game and save even more time than building from scratch. The license that covers the game would then cover the server, and there would be no need to modify the license they already have, nor would they have to acquire any new licenses. Developing from scratch, yes. Better yet, if you're willing to give into a lower end product to please customers without costing excessive dev time, don't strip down the executable, but give certain command line options to turn certain components off.
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barleyguy: You're still not understanding what I'm talking about, at all. I'm not going to try to explain it a third time.
That's not an argument. You explained it well enough. Your argument is that a separate project must be made and either made from scratch entirely to avoid re-licensing (which is not necessary to begin with) or they'd have to try to hack existing code into a new project and get a new license for it. It's very simple, run a server using the same license but either command line options or actual separate download you have a slimmed down version that is capable of acting as a server. If 2 people can run into each other and see each other (when online), and the game can run single player completely offline, the necessary components are already in the customer's executable. The only reason you would need another license is if you want to make hosts use a separate license to grab extra hosting fees, which you can legally do, but that would make you a scumbag. If i'm still somehow interpreting this wrong, you are really bad at explaining things.
I am more excited about the game after seeing this video and a few after it! :)

One thing i was worrying about is how manueverable are you? on the video it looks like you move around fairly slowly, can you run? dodge? jump?

I think this adds to playability and realism and is high on my list.

Also, if there isn't much chance of bumping into other players that sucks! It can't be really classed as a multiplayer then can it?!

I like the idea of exploring and all but after a bit of trading, crafting, flying and exploring the only thing i think is left is the story (the lore, etc that you unravel) which would have to be really engaging a long for the game not to turn into a bore. I know some people online can't help being absolute dicks but there are a lot of good, cooperative players out there too - think of the possibilities - teaming up, starting a fleet/federation of some kind and taking on rival fleets! that would be ace!!!!! :)

I really hope they implement these things enough cos i really want to like it ... and not just for a while but for a long time! :)