Well fair enough, you found an exception but BS is already a MV game.

Sure, but it's the combination of this with platforming, ability gating and an interconnected world that makes a MV or metroid-like.

I would agree with platforming (or shoot em up elements, or rts for example) potentially changing the genre if there's enough of it, but not necessarily a perspective change. It can have a pretty substantial effect on gameplay though.

Yeah Mario 64 is kind of doing something different whereas games like Crash Bandicoot were more what I'd imagine typical 2D platformers in 3D would be like, or the boss levels in Mario 64 singled out. Not that there weren't games more like Mario 64 in 2D, such as Rolo to the Rescue, James Pond 2 or Rayman. And OoT's perspective change (and lack of a zoomed out option) did have a big effect on how dungeon gameplay turned out.

Essays on Empathy, which was just released, apparently contains a metroidvania called Underground Hangovers.

(I haven't tried it, but you apparently can get the game for free at
https://deconstructeam.itch.io/underground-hangovers
)

-Interconnected, persistent world
-Platforming or an equivalent movement focus
-Ability gating like double jumps, wall climbing or bombing walls
-Character upgrades
-Backtracking with new abilities to progress

I think most would consider this a separate category, but it is indeed an interesting angle to take. The problem is, while i bought them, i haven't really tried them out, yet, but i didn't get the impression the batman games had a platforming focus. Then we gotta ask where Super Mario Sunshine (even though it's not on GOG) would fit into this, and if not that, Metroid Prime (which most consider a first person shooter). Given how different 3d platformers tend to be, i feel like you're opening up a can of worms by including them.

So I haven't played Sunshine yet but I think it only had you gain temporary power ups used for the level you're on?

In that sense, most mario games that made you use a power up to progress would count, but they don't - the ability should also be a permanent addition to your tool arsenal that you can carry around and switch to at will or at least keep in a stash for later use.

Akrham Asylum fits at a basic level (it is more linear than the typical MV and has what I would call dungeons), but it does have automatic jumping like Zelda: OoT unless you're using the linegun an gliding along those to move around.

Prime is definitely a MV in my view, but yeah, might wanna do 3D games separately. While a bit controversial I would also count games like System Shock 1 and Exhumed/Powerslave (the PS1/SAT version or the later EX port of it).

It's been a long time, but IIRC there were a few permanent upgrades to go with the temporary ones, but it's been almost 20 years since i've played the thing, so i could be remembering wrong. IIRC, from the way people talked, the focus was on combat, not platforming, also. Would you consider Spyro a platformer (i understand not a metroidvania)? What about Remember Me (combat upgrades, mostly)? Mirror's Edge? Heaven forbid we talking about the Legend of Zelda n64 games (movement upgrades). Then there's the wonderful challenge of minecraft, given that "parkour" is an optional gameplay style for handling certain types of in game features. Horizon: Zero Dawn (that one's really weird, though)?

batman have all those , looks like it is a metroid :P

¨
Yeah Arkham Asylum has a bunch of beat 'em up and stealth segments where you have to fight/take down enemies to progress, which isn't common in MVs, but otherwise it fits for the most part.

Like Arkham, the Zelda games use dungeons and an overworld rather than one big maze with backtracking to previous areas with new abilities to progress (you tend to only do this in the overworld), but it's not a huge difference. I think they differ more in the automatic or non-existent platforming, and focus on NPC interaction and doing quests for them, whereas in Metroid you're basically on your own.

The others I haven't played enough of to say, sorry. But I think most would object to open world games being MVs, at least ones where you can go anywhere and there's just "soft" gating in the form of difficult enemies and hazards.

I've heard alot of people call the batman games "open world." As for dungeons + overworld vs w world, the overworld of LoZ games is also a dungeon from all mechanical outlooks. It's like the center of dracula's castle, where you can go anywhere you want from it. The same can then go back to 2d and talk about the top-down LoZ games because the only difference there is it's a top-down view instead of a side-view, and platforming is still present in some (upgrades that let you jump), but is decreased by alot. And then there's Zelda 2......

The issue is that metroidvania is something we would only consider a 2 or a 2.5d phenomenon. OpenWorld is indeed the 3d equivalent, though most open world games have simpler restriction methods. The lesson of games like sonic and mario on their way to 3d is that translating 2d to 3d is not always going to work right, and given the way it all works, you're going to need to start taking away some of the complexity you had with 2d.For most transitions, this has turned out to be platforming, which, by extension, usually means the entire movement upgrade system since it's predicated on platforming. Only a handful of 3d games managed to retain this during their transition, and they're notoriously plagued with "camera issues." Nintendo picked up on this quickly and made the 3d mario platforming way, way easier with shorter jump distances to account for the added complexity of angling. This usually ends up erasing the viability of double-jump/space jump and similar upgrades to deny movement. Metroid Prime was very painful in trying to retain this, as you would see from any playthrough, and it had the ever more difficult job of doing all this while also being first person instead of 3rd person (because the transition to 3d allows that much more complexity). There is no doubt in my mind that certain first person shooters like Metroid Prime fulfill your criteria for metroidvania. To that end, thee's even a case for minecraft (especially with things like the elytra), which i don't believe you want. Games like shovel knight and megaman and Shantae and the Pirate's Curse put enough of a strain on the definition. We don't need 3d in there.

I mean, common, never would I have considered Sonic Adventure a metroidvania, yet that fits your definition shy of the continuous maze, whcih some shantae games in turn violate yet are considered metroidvanias.

Oh, another thread trying to categorise everything...
Perhaps we should say Wmetroidvania, or Wmetroidsortofwithoutcastlevaniacomponeant. Maybe JmetroidARPCRPGwithsomewessterninfluencesStealthEmUpFPS?

Arkham Asylum is definitely not but i've heard the same for the later BM games by that developer. Yeah Zelda 2 basically is a MV besides the overworld/dungeons split and it having a separate top down overworld like in an RPG.

Ok well I didn't say open world was the 3D equivalent, I said they aren't MVs. But I don't think there's a reason to say a game isn't one based on if it's 3D or not, based on games like The Divide (1996), Exhumed/Powerslave, Shadow man or the Metroid Prime games, and again AA besides the overworld/dungeon split, which didn't have to be there but they made that design choice. No you don't *have to* take away complexity in the move to 3D, some games were arguably more complex in 3D or in a different way. But you are right that earlier 3D games had various difficulties to overcome.

Well what I didn't mention but is kind of obvious is the exploration focus, which Sonic Adventure doesn't really have much of outside of the hub area. Same with Shovel Knight based on my memory of it, that one was more like Mega Man.

I only suggested to separate 3D because they will often play differently, in terms of avatar control and exploration. Unless they are 2.5D like the Tomba games.

Of course you didn't say it: it's my counter-point. When games move to 3d, a new genre obviously sstarted forming due to the difficulty of moving 2d games to 3d. I'm making the argument that a 3d metroidvania is an "open world game," while you're stating that it's specifically what you're trying to avoid. Which means you should probably stick to 2d, or properly disagree witih me. Yeah, you see, a 3d metroidvania ends up being called "open world." And what do you think someone would call a 2d open world game, especially if it happened to be side-scrolling. You can guess this, right?

That actually makes sense.
In a generation of copy-paste games like ours (2010-present) many people haven't even heard of Metroid and would call a Metroidvania a "2D Open World game".

While trying to define what a "Metroidvania" is, I rather stick with the 2Ds too to make it easy, because that's how the originals were made. Otherwise every game containing exploration and item based progression will become a metroidvania. Arkham Asylum is really linear and the exploration is really limited, I wouldn't count it as a Metroidvania personally.

Some people in this thread have mentioned already but the isolation of Metroid is non-existent in most games that call themselves metroidvanias. Metroid could be considered an horror game, too. So yeah, it's really a wide genre.

Imho, after reading you all, that's what charactezires:

♦ Metroidvania:
- Item based progression
- Non-linear 2D sidescrolling labyrinth/maze-like map exploration
- More than one boss acessible from the start
- Isolation, horror-like (Not always mandatory)

♦ Classicvania:
- Non permament power ups (like arcades, but not mandatory)
- Linear 2D sidescrolling progression
- Linear "story" progression
- Multiple characters (Not always mandatory)

♦ 2D Platformer/Action-Platformer:
- Heavily focused on athletic movement for progreession
- Linear map based progression
- Point A to point B levels, end of the level with boss fight or not, like classic Marios.

3D games are a whole new world of complexity. Like @kohlrak said.
Nowdays every game dev is trying to fit all mechanics in their games... so, Idk anymore... not so many original games out there like early 1990~2005.

Nah, I didn't started this thread trying to characterise or categorise Metroidvanias. Was just trying to find Metroidvania-like games here on GOG, but well, it developed into that discussion. Imho there's no harm in it. May be tiresome for some people, but others may like to discuss those things.

Thank you!

Shadow Man fits in the 3D- Metroidvania category. Right from the start you see a lot of blocked areas, that you can access later on after getting the right items to open them or powers to traverse obstacles. All areas are interconnected and you will backtrack often.