And where exactly did I say Theater of Tragedy are Doom Metal? You might want to read that sentence again. If you want to hear more clear Doom influences in what I call Gothic Metal try Type O Negative.

I am quite familiar with both Doom and Symphonic Metal, as I've listed to them for more than 20 years (damn, I'm old).

If you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, then go ahead and have a nice metal filled life with your chosen genre classification, I'm not holding you back :). I was just expressing my views. Let's agree to disagree.

Some random noise: Funeral Mist - Hekatomb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMvTLbwwIK4

You have used this vague, general statement: Just because I discuss things with you, and do not have the same views as you plus millions of others, who got it all wrong, because of the media, doesn't mean I am arguing. It is called discussing, talking if you will. Just because I am not using smileys and using terms like "actually, not really, kinda", which would make me appear less confident, and as if I was looking for your approval without trying to offend you, doesn't mean I am angry, or edgy, or trying to argue for the sake of arguing. Let's keep this discussion civil, mature and constructive.

I always saw Gothic as a child of Doom with Symphonic, = it borrows influences from both genres
not one or the other, = what I call "Gothic", I would not call either "Doom" or "Symphonic"
depending on who you ask. = but while asking other people, some would say my definition of "Gothic" fits either into their definition of "Doom" or their definition of "Symphonic".

I fail to see how this is ever a vague, general statement. Hope I cleared up what I meant now.

And on that I agree. As long as you can be aware that some stuff you are saying in response to "mainstream" misconceptions and so on are actually not my views at all. You are putting words in my mouth and that is hardly mature.

Oh and btw: I did not mean arguing in the more colloquial sense that, I now realize, you gave it.

... and speaking of Gothic Metal, or what other people may call it, here is my atonement (a relatively unknown and under-rated band in the genre) for taking my... discussion with Wishmaster777 too far and hogging the thread:

Mortal Love - So I Betray The Mission

Lake of Tears - So Fell Autumn Rain

So fell Autumn rain
But all things must pass...

Since I do have knowledge in this music genre, and I do know how to classify bands in their corresponding musical genres and sub-genres, I will not act like a timid, insecure and humble child. On contrary, I will say how things are, very accurately, always giving the comparison between bands, like I did post several YouTube links with songs. It is not my personal view, it's just the way things are. If you go to dedicated forums where people know how to recognize their music, they will also tell you that, for example Theatre Of Tragedy, Swallow The Sun and likes of them are Doom Metal, but rather bands like Black Sabbath, Pentagram, Acid Witch, Novermbers Doom, etc.

Neither should I care whether some of you might find me too confident, too self-righteous or whatever you come up with, nor am I going to act fake humbleness. I am very much confident im what i said, I you can try to mediate all you want, facts are facts, and I don't see them as something relative, and thus that it can be interpreted the way individuals want.

I invite you to start constructive discussion on the topic comparing bands and music Rather than focusing on arguments on personal level, where you keep giving lectures about my attitude. And since the WinterSnowfall replied to my original comment, I do not feel guilt, nor shame in replying to him.

If you go through the comments again, my replies were focused on music genre, its sub-genres, bands record labels, and media. All you do, and all WinterSnowfall did, is talking about me. This is what you did here:
Facts>your feelings. I hope this didn't hurt you, as it was not my intention. Even if I did, you should grow a thicker skin. :-)

Panta rhei. Your "facts" are an intrinsically subjective method for the classification of music, which is ever changing. Sub-genres slowly take form and evolve into genres that eventually spring sub-genres of their own.

Leave the absolutes in the realms of mathematics and logic.

If you like to think otherwise you are just lying to yourself, but hey, most people do it one way or the other, so don't be shy :). My 2 cents.

Speaking of which, is there such a thing as a Viking Metal riff, or is it only a nuance of lyrics and theme that sets it apart from regular Folk Metal? Why is Viking Metal OK as a genre and Pagan Metal did not make your list? Can't you see this whole discussion is ridiculous?

No... no, it seems I was only talking to myself. I'm going to shut up now.

Heavy Metal music comes from Rock chords, blues drum rhythm and the dark tone of the Classical music.

The very first person to start playing Classical music on their electric guitars was Swede Yngwie Malmsteen . He created the style known as Neoclassical Metal. That Heavy Metal style does not feature orchestrations, nor symphonic elements, the notes inspired by the Classical music are being played on electric guitars, keyboards and bass guitar.

The very first song, which was the prototype Symphonic Metal, was Manowar - The Crown And The Ring (Lament Of The Kings) from 1988. Why prototype Symphonic Metal? Because song doesn't feature any electric guitar. They focused more the epic choir and keyboards with organ effect, and some other background classical instruments.

Two bands from different parts of the world started recording Heavy Metal songs in Death Metal style in '88, '89 and early 90's. Those bands were German Haggard and Swedish Therion. Both bands recorded songs in Death Metal style on their demo albums, and early studio albums, and both switched to orchestral Heavy Metal music in mid 90's which came to be known as Symphonic Metal. Unlike Neoclassical Metal, Symphonic Metal does have orchestrations, keyboards which simulate organ sound, and and [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrLufGYZFCI]Lingua Mortis Orchestra have full line-up of orchestra performing with them during recording of the albums and on live concerrts. German band Rage toured and performed with Lingua Mortis Orchestra , which later came to become the band itself.

And again, clothing style doesn't make music genres, nor sub-genres, therefore there is no "gothic metal." May I ask for an example of the gothic riff in a song?

Ironic, considering you are the one to use the genre and sub-genre defining names like "doom metal", despite claiming it's highly subjective thing to do.

Wrong. Sub-genres do not "evolve". The musical genre evolves. During that evolution happening, the new sub-genres are being born, and that is why I listed all of them in my original comment. Sub-genres do tend to blend here and there, but it goes to create new sub-genres, not change the already existing ones.

Horror movies are Horror movies, it doesn't matter the year they have been released. Thrillers are thrillers, no matter which decade they were recorded.

Going with that kind of "logic" one could make everything relative by saying "There are no music genres and sub-genres, there is only music." Which is wrong, of course.

Here is why genres and sub-genres exist.
Person A: I like Nightwish. Can you recommend me more similar bands?
Person B: You might like Therion.
Person A: Thanks. They are good. Any band else?
Person B: You might try out Haggard.
Person A: Wow, I am falling in love with these type of bands. What is their musical direction?
Person B: Heavy Metal music, done in Symphonic Metal style.
Person A: Nice, I will check out some more Symphonic Metal myself.

If we didn't have accurate sub-genres, conversations would have been this awkward:
Person A: I like Nightwish. Can you recommend me more similar bands?
Person B: Try out HammerFall.
Person A: That doesn't sound like Nightwish.
Person B: It's all "metal".

An extreme form of relativism example:
Person A: I like Nightwish. Can you recommend me more similar bands?
Relativist: Eminem.
Person A: What?
Relativist: It's all music, you bigot.

You doctorate on it or is it just how you see yourself? I assume it's the second and therefor just an opinion. As valid (or not) as any other.

Yet you're lecturing everyone about the one and only way how to see and classify metal music - your way. Again, not constructive - at all.
Oh and about discussing with you - there's no sense discussing with someone who deals in absolutes.
I actually had a long reply here about your "facts". I thrown it out again, as it would just provoke an answer where you'd keep pandering your own ego, about how you've figured it out and everyone else is wrong.

So I'll go back to what this thread was meant for, discovering and enjoying metal music. Not repeating the same fucked up discussion happening since 30 years over and over again, with STILL no finite definition.

Again, all you did was
Your keywords during argument: you, you're, your, opinion.
My keywords during discussion: riff, distorition, guitar tuning, genre, sub-genre, music origins, links with songs as examples.

Speaking of DOOM... TENTACLE: Void Abyss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cblKTeqRboY&t=7s

This discussion about sub-genre classification reminds of the Holy Records catalog (if any of you know about it) that I was using back in the day to order albums. It was really fun to look at the genre sub-genre, sub-sub-genre description. Sometimes I even dared to order stuff that I knew nothing about just because the classification intrigued me and I actually ended up buying some bands that I enjoyed listening for years (Adorned Brood, Celestial Season...). Fun time.