Posted January 20, 2016
babark
Pirate Mullah
babark Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Pakistan
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Brasas Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted January 20, 2016
babark: So if I tell you "If you murder someone, you'll get the justice you deserve!", I am somehow threatening you?
snip ... to consider it as a threat is absurd.
Why absurd? snip ... to consider it as a threat is absurd.
I have no issue with describing that as a threat, and have just told you I don't think my opinion is in anyway unique to me. Part of the justice system is intimidation, although of course usually described via synonyms that do not carry negative connotations. Fear of punishment is supposed to intimidate / dissuade us from commiting crimes...
How about you answer me and we can understand each other better via these "word games" that reveal our moral and ethical preferences?
Why don't you think that is a threat?
-Becuse it is justly deserved?
-Because it is sanctioned by a government?
-Because it is not evil?
Why absurd babark?
PS: I googled. Sure as heck seems to fit the bill to me...
threat
noun
1. a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.
babark
Pirate Mullah
babark Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Pakistan
Posted January 20, 2016
Yes, exactly.
Forget not having the means or ability or even control over the consequence, the person making the statement is in no way connected to the party that would cause it. So if I told you that if you murdered someone, you'd get the justice you deserve, it cannot be said I am threatening you.
Forget not having the means or ability or even control over the consequence, the person making the statement is in no way connected to the party that would cause it. So if I told you that if you murdered someone, you'd get the justice you deserve, it cannot be said I am threatening you.
Post edited January 20, 2016 by babark
Tarm
MK III
Tarm Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From Sweden
Posted January 20, 2016
The immigrant question is getting worse here in Sweden. Maybe. We don't really know.
We don't know because it turns out the police have gathered all efforts regarding immigrants, be they perpetrator, victim, the incident is in a house related to them or whatever. If the incident is related to immigrants, refugees or similar it is apparently gathered under the name ALMA, marked with the internal police code 291 and information about it will not be released to the media. That's right. The Swedish Police have decided that media should not get information about something as important for Swedens citizens as this is.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-hemlighaller-fakta-om-sitt-flyktingarbete/
We don't know because it turns out the police have gathered all efforts regarding immigrants, be they perpetrator, victim, the incident is in a house related to them or whatever. If the incident is related to immigrants, refugees or similar it is apparently gathered under the name ALMA, marked with the internal police code 291 and information about it will not be released to the media. That's right. The Swedish Police have decided that media should not get information about something as important for Swedens citizens as this is.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-hemlighaller-fakta-om-sitt-flyktingarbete/
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Brasas Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted January 20, 2016
babark: Yes, exactly.
Forget not having the means or ability or even control over the consequence, the person making the statement is in no way connected to the party that would cause it. So if I told you that if you murdered someone, you'd get the justice you deserve, it cannot be said I am threatening you.
Yes it can be said. And it's right to say it, because all that's required is that by "justice I deserve" for commiting murder, you have in mind that some harm, pain, or somesuch would be inflicted on me. Forget not having the means or ability or even control over the consequence, the person making the statement is in no way connected to the party that would cause it. So if I told you that if you murdered someone, you'd get the justice you deserve, it cannot be said I am threatening you.
A threat can very well be impersonal (and vague even) and still be a threat. Like the infamous "I wish you die of cancer" that so many people throw around online... You just need to accept the provided definition... of course, I won't force you...
Look at this now babark.
I agree that according to your implied definition, what jamys did was probably not a threat. I disagree because to me jamys' intent that harm happen was clear, even if a heat of the moment thing.
Let's see yours now?
Here's to help you out even :) "According to your definition of a threat, what jamys did was probably a threat, but I disagree because I don't find jamys had the ability to cause harm to Klumpen, even if he wished it"
Or is that really so absurd to you? If so, why?
babark
Pirate Mullah
babark Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Pakistan
Posted January 20, 2016
"I wish you die of cancer" is certainly not a threat. I'm not sure what you're talking about. I am very happy to go according to your EXPLICIT definition, no need to go by any definition you seem to think I imply.
jamys's statement was in no way an intention to inflict pain. Jamys would have no participation in the "justice served". Similarly, wishing cancer on someone is in no sense a threat. If instead someone said "I will give you cancer if you don't do this" and then imply that you will puff smoke in their face or something, THAT would be a threat.
"I will try to kill you!" posted by an anonymous person on the internet, who has no knowledge of you or where you live, even though it is unlikely that they may be able to carry it out, yes, would still be considered a threat.
"I hope you die of cancer" is not a threat.
"If you keep smoking like that, you could die of cancer" is not a threat.
"If you jump off a building, you will might die" is not a threat.
"If you commit a crime, the police will come and arrest you" (as said by someone not in law enforcement, if you like), is not a threat.
Only the very first example is an statement of intention to inflict harm. Do you understand now?
jamys's statement was in no way an intention to inflict pain. Jamys would have no participation in the "justice served". Similarly, wishing cancer on someone is in no sense a threat. If instead someone said "I will give you cancer if you don't do this" and then imply that you will puff smoke in their face or something, THAT would be a threat.
"I will try to kill you!" posted by an anonymous person on the internet, who has no knowledge of you or where you live, even though it is unlikely that they may be able to carry it out, yes, would still be considered a threat.
"I hope you die of cancer" is not a threat.
"If you keep smoking like that, you could die of cancer" is not a threat.
"If you jump off a building, you will might die" is not a threat.
"If you commit a crime, the police will come and arrest you" (as said by someone not in law enforcement, if you like), is not a threat.
Only the very first example is an statement of intention to inflict harm. Do you understand now?
Post edited January 20, 2016 by babark
Devastor
New User
Devastor Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Feb 2015
From Germany
Posted January 20, 2016
Very good! Thank you! (but only in german)
viperfdl: A few more links to articles from "Telepolis" about this topic:
Der Tahrir-Platz von Köln
Kölner Polizei: "Wir haben bisher noch keinen Tatverdächtigen"
Köln: Polizei tappt im Dunkeln
Ist der Sexist immer der Moslem?
Edit:
Silvester-Übergriffe in Köln: Wir sind schockiert! Aber worüber eigentlich?
Der Tahrir-Platz von Köln
Kölner Polizei: "Wir haben bisher noch keinen Tatverdächtigen"
Köln: Polizei tappt im Dunkeln
Ist der Sexist immer der Moslem?
Edit:
Silvester-Übergriffe in Köln: Wir sind schockiert! Aber worüber eigentlich?
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Brasas Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
babark
Pirate Mullah
babark Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Pakistan
Posted January 20, 2016
....
I...
I don't think you understand english properly, Brasas.
The very statement "intent to cause harm" means that participation is part of it.
You can't intend to cause someone harm, if you're telling them that some other party (or act of nature) that they have no control or agency over will be causing the harm. Because then you wouldn't be causing it.
I hope that all criminals get the justice they deserve. Saying so is not a threat from me to all criminals.
If you give me the names of specific criminals, I will also specifically hope they get the justice they deserve. This is still not a threat to those specific criminals.
Having a desire that a person be harmed is not the same as a statement of intent to harm them. You'll notice the absolute lack of the word "desire" in the definition you quoted. I could say "I really don't want to hurt you, but I will have to if you continue", and absolutely mean it, but it'd still be a threat, because it conveys my intent to inflict harm, and has nothing to do with my desire to have harm inflicted on you (not the same thing).
An intent to inflict harm, by definition requires participation (either personal, or through some controlled or directed 3rd party).
This isn't about "understanding points". It is about plain english.
Anyhow, I grow tired of this discussion. It has only grown sillier and sillier, and I'm sure you'll agree we are far far away from the topic at hand. Feel free to discuss with others about intention and participation in threats, if you for some reason think I'm wrong or lying.
I...
I don't think you understand english properly, Brasas.
The very statement "intent to cause harm" means that participation is part of it.
You can't intend to cause someone harm, if you're telling them that some other party (or act of nature) that they have no control or agency over will be causing the harm. Because then you wouldn't be causing it.
I hope that all criminals get the justice they deserve. Saying so is not a threat from me to all criminals.
If you give me the names of specific criminals, I will also specifically hope they get the justice they deserve. This is still not a threat to those specific criminals.
Having a desire that a person be harmed is not the same as a statement of intent to harm them. You'll notice the absolute lack of the word "desire" in the definition you quoted. I could say "I really don't want to hurt you, but I will have to if you continue", and absolutely mean it, but it'd still be a threat, because it conveys my intent to inflict harm, and has nothing to do with my desire to have harm inflicted on you (not the same thing).
An intent to inflict harm, by definition requires participation (either personal, or through some controlled or directed 3rd party).
This isn't about "understanding points". It is about plain english.
Anyhow, I grow tired of this discussion. It has only grown sillier and sillier, and I'm sure you'll agree we are far far away from the topic at hand. Feel free to discuss with others about intention and participation in threats, if you for some reason think I'm wrong or lying.
Post edited January 20, 2016 by babark
Klumpen0815
+91
Klumpen0815 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2012
From Germany
Posted January 20, 2016
Tarm: The immigrant question is getting worse here in Sweden. Maybe. We don't really know.
We don't know because it turns out the police have gathered all efforts regarding immigrants, be they perpetrator, victim, the incident is in a house related to them or whatever. If the incident is related to immigrants, refugees or similar it is apparently gathered under the name ALMA, marked with the internal police code 291 and information about it will not be released to the media. That's right. The Swedish Police have decided that media should not get information about something as important for Swedens citizens as this is.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-hemlighaller-fakta-om-sitt-flyktingarbete/
Same here: We don't know because it turns out the police have gathered all efforts regarding immigrants, be they perpetrator, victim, the incident is in a house related to them or whatever. If the incident is related to immigrants, refugees or similar it is apparently gathered under the name ALMA, marked with the internal police code 291 and information about it will not be released to the media. That's right. The Swedish Police have decided that media should not get information about something as important for Swedens citizens as this is.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-hemlighaller-fakta-om-sitt-flyktingarbete/
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/meanwhile_in_kolncologne_warning_politics_inside/post260
Most reports in Germany regarding crimes commited by immigrants are censored for years already though.
I know a journalist that has to change every "Ali X" into a "Martin X" or something similar when reporting about crime cases, this has been happening for a long time already besides the silence about bigger stuff like in Cologne.
OlivawR: Few months ago Greece was Europe's number 1 problem and you filled the forum with economic/political crap, now Greece is all fine and dandy and it's the immigrants. Deeply convictions... more like whatever the politicians and news channels decided is a problem convictions.
Wrong, the mass media only wrote about it after a few blogs delivered the news already long after the incident and it's the same in many cases (Greece, TTIP, etc...). The mass media did a (deliberately bad) report about this nearly a week after it happened, so it was certainly not "news" anymore since they only did it after the blogs were already reporting about it and people wondered "why wasn't this in the news?".
Post edited January 20, 2016 by Klumpen0815
Tarm
MK III
Tarm Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From Sweden
Posted January 20, 2016
Tarm: The immigrant question is getting worse here in Sweden. Maybe. We don't really know.
We don't know because it turns out the police have gathered all efforts regarding immigrants, be they perpetrator, victim, the incident is in a house related to them or whatever. If the incident is related to immigrants, refugees or similar it is apparently gathered under the name ALMA, marked with the internal police code 291 and information about it will not be released to the media. That's right. The Swedish Police have decided that media should not get information about something as important for Swedens citizens as this is.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-hemlighaller-fakta-om-sitt-flyktingarbete/
Klumpen0815: Same here: We don't know because it turns out the police have gathered all efforts regarding immigrants, be they perpetrator, victim, the incident is in a house related to them or whatever. If the incident is related to immigrants, refugees or similar it is apparently gathered under the name ALMA, marked with the internal police code 291 and information about it will not be released to the media. That's right. The Swedish Police have decided that media should not get information about something as important for Swedens citizens as this is.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-hemlighaller-fakta-om-sitt-flyktingarbete/
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/meanwhile_in_kolncologne_warning_politics_inside/post260
Most reports in Germany regarding crimes commited by immigrants are censored for years already though.
I know a journalist that has to change every "Ali X" into a "Martin X" or something similar when reporting about crime cases, this has been happening for a long time already besides the silence about bigger stuff like in Cologne.
I'm fine with this. For example a abused child should not have their name and picture spread in media. It's situational.
But this is something else. It seems to actually be handled like a big coordinated police effort. That's not something we're used to being kept from the media like this. It's a very unswedish behaviour since Sweden prides itself on being a very open society regarding what the state and its departments do.
I really hope media get to the bottom of this.
Post edited January 20, 2016 by Tarm
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Brasas Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted January 21, 2016
I don't think plain english is as plain as you think babark...
Since you're getting tired, I'll keep it short.
1 - Intent does not imply action / participation.
2 - Control over outcomes of actions defines ability, not intent.
3 - The only pronoun present in the definition I provided and you accepted is "someone".
Threat: a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done
A - I hope that all criminals get the justice they deserve.
B - I intend that all criminals get the justice they deserve.
C - I intend that all criminals get punished as they deserve.
D - I intend that all criminals get punished for what they did.
E - I intend that all criminals suffer for what they did.
All I did was reword your statement without really changing its meaning. Do you see the threat now?
I don't need to get to "I intend that all criminals suffer at my hands or those of someone I control for what they did" for it to be a threat... that would also be a threat of course, but it's absurd to insist only that is a threat whereas the above is not just because it is impersonal.
So yeah, of course I still think you are wrong...
Until next time babark.
Since you're getting tired, I'll keep it short.
1 - Intent does not imply action / participation.
2 - Control over outcomes of actions defines ability, not intent.
3 - The only pronoun present in the definition I provided and you accepted is "someone".
Threat: a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done
A - I hope that all criminals get the justice they deserve.
B - I intend that all criminals get the justice they deserve.
C - I intend that all criminals get punished as they deserve.
D - I intend that all criminals get punished for what they did.
E - I intend that all criminals suffer for what they did.
All I did was reword your statement without really changing its meaning. Do you see the threat now?
I don't need to get to "I intend that all criminals suffer at my hands or those of someone I control for what they did" for it to be a threat... that would also be a threat of course, but it's absurd to insist only that is a threat whereas the above is not just because it is impersonal.
So yeah, of course I still think you are wrong...
Until next time babark.
Avogadro6
Sporco RAZZIsta
Avogadro6 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2011
From Italy
Posted January 21, 2016
Klumpen0815: Most reports in Germany regarding crimes commited by immigrants are censored for years already though.
I know a journalist that has to change every "Ali X" into a "Martin X" or something similar when reporting about crime cases, this has been happening for a long time already besides the silence about bigger stuff like in Cologne.
Everyone is trying to manipulate the news, not just the pro-immigrants. It gets particularly annoying when assholes like Breitbart mount fake cases (like this article someone posted in the GG thread some time ago) counting on the language barrier to hide the fact they're completely talking out of their ass.I know a journalist that has to change every "Ali X" into a "Martin X" or something similar when reporting about crime cases, this has been happening for a long time already besides the silence about bigger stuff like in Cologne.
Klumpen0815
+91
Klumpen0815 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2012
From Germany
Posted January 22, 2016
Good ol' victim shaming:
Imam Sami Abu-Yusuf of the Salafist mosque in Cologne blames the women
So much for cultural enrichment.
Imam Sami Abu-Yusuf of the Salafist mosque in Cologne blames the women
So much for cultural enrichment.
Gnostic
New User
Gnostic Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jun 2013
From Other
Posted January 22, 2016
Klumpen0815: Most reports in Germany regarding crimes commited by immigrants are censored for years already though.
I know a journalist that has to change every "Ali X" into a "Martin X" or something similar when reporting about crime cases, this has been happening for a long time already besides the silence about bigger stuff like in Cologne.
Avogadro6: Everyone is trying to manipulate the news, not just the pro-immigrants. It gets particularly annoying when assholes like Breitbart mount fake cases (like this article someone posted in the GG thread some time ago) counting on the language barrier to hide the fact they're completely talking out of their ass. I know a journalist that has to change every "Ali X" into a "Martin X" or something similar when reporting about crime cases, this has been happening for a long time already besides the silence about bigger stuff like in Cologne.
Because I go to the website you link, check the source provided, then run them over Google translator.
It supports the claims of Breitbart and I translated most of the text and read to be sure. The following is just a translation of the headline.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Attivista stuprata da un migrante«Gli altri mi chiesero di tacere
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Activist raped by a migrant "The others asked me to keep quiet
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~