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Klumpen0815: wanted to include misogynist patriarchal culture into our society
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Vainamoinen: Shouldn't that work out just wonderfully, integrating misogynist patriarchal culture into another misogynist patriarchal culture? Can't we just bond over our collective sexual assault on New Year's, carnival, Oktoberfest? Or should we rather take an holistic approach to get to the bottom of this mess?
Not sure if serious.
You haven't had much direct contact with oriental culture, have you? Otherwise you'd know what a misogynist patriarchal culture is.

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Klumpen0815: solely for the sake of multiculturalism
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Vainamoinen: Not sure what kind of Kool-Aid you were breast fed on, but multiculturalism has never been an end in itself.

It is but one approach to making life between different cultures possible, one way of indeed assimilating each other's ways. The Romans e.g. happily adopted customs, culture and goods of most of the lands they conquered; up to and including adopting a range of Greek and Persian gods with new names slapped on them. Well, the Greek had already taken some from Egyptian culture (Isis), so duh.

The strength of a culture isn't to reject the foreign, but to devour it.

According to Pegida, then, the German culture must be laughably weak, having lost that ability.
Yeah right, we should finally teach our women to hide themselves and only go outside with male company, so that men won't get seduced to raping, right? That's some nice stuff you want to integrate into our culture, I guess you'll never have daughters, but the daughters of others will be very thankful.

That's the great thing about academic armchair activists, they have no clue about the real world but it doesn't matter, because they aren't affected themselves anyway, won't notice anything and be in denial about whatever information snippets from real-life they might encounter.

Go read the Quran and visit some countries in the middle east outside of the tourism charade, then make up your mind again. The real world is the best cure for ignorance.
Post edited January 08, 2016 by Klumpen0815
I feel so dumb sometimes. All over the Europe, there's at least 5% unemployment, the infantile mortality is also low and the automatization is replacing human workforce faster than ever. Yet there's always this discussion that we don't procreate enough. It's like people want to see poverty on this planet.
Vainamoinen:

Yeah, no, I've read until that point and no further. Education level of Syrian refugees is quite high, BTW.

dont lie, baby. when you follow by education, its quite awkward.

looking for syrian BMWs made by eritreans.
merkel should to receive generous offer of saudi arabia to cover costs for building new mosques. imam looks for you to convert ;)
Post edited January 08, 2016 by flanner
<span class="bold">Islamic State militant killed his own mother in Syria</span>

cannot wait for that cultural enrichment
First up I just want to say that I am friends personally with some very nice, warm, kind and respectable family oriented, very sophisticalted and socially integrated people who are Muslim and whose parents and grandparents fled the Middle East many years (and decades) ago and they are just as appalled and horrified by this as everyone else agrees - and of course people such as them are not the subject of this controversy. This is about what is happening right now and not just a one off incident involving what mainstream media claims are so called "petty criminals" and a few bad "refugees". As evidenced by the dozens of reports from all over Europe this is the start of something far worse. Assaults, rapes and murders against Europeans are happening "everywhere". The mainstream media want to spin this on the one hand as "just petty thugs and criminals" and on the other they are trying to get as much anti-Islam mileage out of it as possible. Needless to say you won't find the truth there, however it is out there - you just need to know where the honest reports are coming in from around Europe.

Junge Frau arg zugerichtet!

Sweden: Welfare migrant cuts throat of host family&rsquo;s 7-year-old daughter.

Mass molestation of European women.

Attacks in Germany, Austria, Switzerland.

European authorities are in total denial and completely out of touch with the people.

German Interior Minister: "Right-Wing Chat Rooms At Least As Awful As Mass Rape Attacks"

The official neofem response to the mass rape of European Women by "refugees" is to denounce European Men.

And of course the the BBC tried to spin it to the complete opposite of what's actually happening. Claiming it was "pick pockets" and other "petty criminals" and with a headline claiming "Merkel's digust". My god! She's one of the people who should be held criminally responsible for what is happening all over Eurpoe right now! Time mag "Person of the year" - what an outrage.

Video - An eyewitness account. New years eve 2015, Immigrant riots in Cologne Germany

You know, I usually don't talk about my irl world online but I will say that during conversations about this with friends and family, what kept recurring was Why is this one incident so polarizing? And why people feel so strongly about what is happening. And it was an afore mentioned Muslim friend who summed up the situation perfectly. You know what she said? She said "It is because this can not be softened with jokes and humour. There is just nothing funny about this".
Post edited January 08, 2016 by noncompliantgame
low rated
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Klumpen0815: Yeah right, we should finally teach our women to hide themselves and only go outside with male company, so that men won't get seduced to raping, right?
If proposed solutions concerning sexual assault focus on Islam (or religion) exclusively, they are deeply ineffective solutions.

That's why I'm asking for an holistic perspective on the matter. And that includes, for example, guys like these:

http://www.pickupforum.de/
Interesting search term e.g. "Karneval".

Also, I'd appreciate if you at least started reading my posts. Concerning actual German culture, the "armchair activist" is you.
Post edited January 08, 2016 by Vainamoinen
More recent info:

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article150765894/Verdaechtige-Maenner-hatten-Sex-Spickzettel-dabei.html

Basically, they say they arrested two men from Morocco and Tunisia who had videos of attacks on women on their phones, as well as cheat-sheets with the arabic-german translations of "nice breast", "I will kill you", and a nasty version of "I want sex with you". Also, they arrested 31 men for different crimes of that night, but not the serious sexual assaults. 9 from Algeria, 8 from Morocco, 5 from Iran, 4 from Syria, 1 from the US and 2 Germans. 18 of the 31 men are asylseekers.
They are also stating that they have 21 more suspects who have not been arrested yet. 170 reported crimes of which 117 are of a sexual nature. Some of the stolen cell phones were found at asylcamps or around the area.
They also make some statements about foreign crime clans that recruit refugees or use the mass of incoming refugees to get criminals into the country and that refugees need to be better protected against them.
I think that's pretty much the main new info being presented in this article.
Post edited January 08, 2016 by quisquid
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Vainamoinen: sip

TL;DR: The strength of a culture isn't to reject the foreign, but to devour it.
And then the majority culture gets accused of cultural appropriation. Or haven't you noticed? :)

I guess you recognize some of the pro-multiculturalism goes way into a kind of Orientalism (is that the term?). A certain fetishization (not sexual obviously - though it can be) that would rather freeze and conserve the different cultures, rather than allowing for their organic mixture.

Put another way, whose fault is it that say, black and white culture is so different in the US (or is it really?)? You can both say most whites are not interested in mixing, but also that many if not most blacks are interested in affirming their differences rather than be subsumed, as it were, in the majority.

Put another way, the desire to protect minorities from majorities, can be deeply incompatible with the kind of multiculturalism that you are describing. Because what you just described is closer to the melting pot that a lot of multiculturalism opposes. So when you see attacks on this fetishization of minority status - I'd really rather say privileging of minority status, but ironically the meaning of "privilege" got appropriated - you should be able to understand there is no logical consequence of disagreeing with the melting pot ideal.
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Vainamoinen: If proposed solutions concerning sexual assault focus on Islam (or religion) exclusively, they are deeply ineffective solutions.

snip
Here again we disagree. In terms of the ideal of equality it might not be fair that the focus is exclusive on A versus B.

In terms of efficiency of solutions it depends whether most of the problems comes or not from A or B. Unfortunately the repression of information to know what the objective truth is, is widespread, especially when it intersects with some of the minorities which I just described as being fetishized - for lack of a better word.

I agree with your implication though, that it should be possible to have solutions to these problems that do not discriminate on religious affiliation.
Post edited January 08, 2016 by Brasas
google for Maajid Nawaz's article on this published via thedailybeast. I'd link it if I could, but I was too offensive for some people somehow.
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Shadowstalker16: google for Maajid Nawaz's article on this published via thedailybeast. I'd link it if I could, but I was too offensive for some people somehow.
It's always nice to hear from Maajid, because I regularly expect him to be assassinated and it always makes me smile to know that he is still going.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/08/why-we-can-t-stay-silent-on-germany-s-mass-sex-assaults.html

In case it gets lost:
Maajid Nawaz - Why We Can’t Stay Silent on Germany’s Mass Sex Assaults

It took several days for the news of hundreds of sexual assaults in Cologne to make headlines. As progressives dither over what to say, the far right has already seized the opportunity.

It reminded us all of the beginning of the end of the Arab Spring. In 2011, the celebratory crowds in Egypt’s Tahrir Square began giving way to organized street gangs who targeted and raped women out in the open. Perhaps this was a bad omen for things to come in the region.

Germany’s welcoming euphoria at receiving 1.1 million asylum seekers in 2015 may have just turned a similarly dark corner. More than 120 criminal complaints have been filed by women in Cologne who say they were subjected to public sexual assault or robbery, including at least two alleged street rapes, all in one night. The 400 men accused of being behind this mass attack formed coordinated rings around the women. They have been universally described as being of North African and Arab appearance. Police are examining Internet forums and chat groups on the working assumption that it is unlikely 400 men just met by accident.

Though this all occurred on New Year’s Eve, the absolute scandal is that we only found out about it five days later. Amid accusations that it deliberately covered the incident up in order not to spark panic, the public broadcaster ZDF was forced to issue an apology for failing to include the assaults in its main evening news broadcast. It appears that, as the authorities and the media were choosing between stirring up racial tension and these women’s rights, we were faced with a conspiracy of silence.

Eventually, this was bound to happen. Recent mass migration patterns across Europe have meant that misogyny has finally come head to head with anti-racism, multiculturalism is facing off against feminism, and progressive values are wrestling with cultural tolerance.

Yes, it is racist to suspect that all brown men who look like me are rapists. It is bigoted to presume that all Muslim men who share my faith advocate religiously justified rape. It is xenophobic to assume that all male refugees are sexual predators awaiting their chance to rape. But let me be absolutely clear: What will feed this racism, bigotry, and xenophobia even more is deliberately failing to report the facts as they stand. Doing so only encourages the populist right’s rallying cry against “the establishment.”

If liberals do not address such issues swiftly, with complete candor and courage, the far-right and anti-Muslim populist groups will get there first. They have been doing so for a while now.

The far-right street protest group Hogesa, or Hooligans Against Salafism, continues to cause consternation on the streets of Cologne, while the populist-right Pegida has already responded to the New Year’s Eve attacks by announcing a protest in Cologne on Jan. 9.

No, my fellow liberals, these issues cannot be brushed under the carpet or simply willed away. They are not going anywhere, anytime soon. So how can we address this sensibly, without bursting a blood vessel in our Right eye, or missing the blind spot in our Left?

Let’s start by looking at the evidence. Official figures in Germany suggest that, currently, refugees are no more likely to commit sexual crimes than other sections of the population. “Refugees commit just as few or as many crimes as groups of the local population,” says Germany’s interior minister, Thomas de Maiziere. That’s good news. Bank it.

Street sexual violence is also—obviously—not exclusive to Arab and Muslim-majority countries. Indeed, among the worst offenders is Papua New Guinea, where two-thirds of women are subjected to some kind of physical or sexual violence, and rapists from “raskol” gangs are happy to pose for photos after their latest rape.

Having said that, what is infuriating and totally counterproductive is to deny that a specifically cultural problem around immigration patterns and European sexual norms has been steadily rising across the continent. To pretend this is not the case only further stigmatizes us brown Muslim men. That the problem requires attention is clear.

German police unions and women’s right groups have recently accused authorities of underplaying cases of rape at refugee shelters. “There is a lot of glossing over going on. But this doesn’t represent reality,” police union chief Rainer Wendt told Reuters. Henry Ove Berg, who was a police chief during Norway’s recent spike in rape cases, said, “people from some parts of the world have never seen a girl in a miniskirt, only in a burqa… when they get to Norway, something happens in their heads.” He added that “there was a link but not a very clear link” between the rape cases in Norway and immigrants. Hanne Kristin Rohde, former head of the violent crime section of the Oslo Police Department, was criticized in 2011 when she went public with data suggesting that immigrants committed a hugely disproportionate number of rapes. “This was a big problem… but it was difficult to talk about,” she remarked. There was “a clear statistical connection between sexual violence and male migrants.”
part 2 in next post
Post edited January 08, 2016 by Klumpen0815
This is all controversial, but it must be said. Anecdotal attitudes point to the same conclusion. Abdu Osman Kelifa, an Eritrean asylum seeker to Norway, recently told The New York Times that in his home country, “if someone wants a lady, he can just take her and he will not be punished.” He confessed that it was still hard for him to accept that a woman could accuse her husband of rape.

Between denying the problem and using it to fuel bigoted far-right rhetoric, an approach grounded in data and a level head is vital. Any solution to this emerging issue must simultaneously seek to deny the far right the ammunition it desires while preserving—not reneging on—Europe’s hard earned progressive social values.

With that in mind, Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker’s after the mass attacks in her city were terribly unhelpful. When [url=http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/koeln-eine-armlaenge-empoerung-1.2806458]asked by a journalist how women could guard against such attacks, Reker shocked many around the world by suggesting that women should remain at “arm&rsquo;s length” from strangers in the street and that she would soon be issuing a “code of conduct” for women “so that such things do not happen to them.”

Others have made the same error. Martin Thalhammer, the headmaster at Wilhelm-Diess-Gymnasium, a school in Pocking, Bavaria, sent a letter home to parents advising them that “Syrian citizens are mainly Muslims and speak Arabic. The refugees are marked by their own culture. Because our school is directly next to where they are staying, modest clothing should be adhered to, in order to avoid discrepancies. Revealing tops or blouses, short shorts or miniskirts could lead to misunderstandings.” With men accounting for about 70 percent of asylum seekers, some groups across Germany have demanded gender-segregated accommodation and safe zones for women.

No. European progressive and feminist groups have toiled over centuries to educate us all that rape victims are not responsible for the actions of the rapist. Victim-blaming and demanding that women change their behavior are the worst ways to respond to rape culture. They only sexualize the victim more.

The fetishization of the female body has not led to a decrease in cases of sexual violence in societies where women cover their entire bodies. If Taliban- and ISIS-held areas are anything to go by, violence against women only increases the more women are asked to conceal and segregate themselves. This would make sense, because accompanying such attitudes is the notion that women are sexual objects to be owned and controlled, and not human beings to be respected and loved. What is infuriating is that for centuries progressives have made these very arguments against white Christian fundamentalists in the West, yet—displaying an incredible cognitive dissonance—those progressives easily abandon that position when confronted with the problem in a minority community.

The case of Cologne tells us that we can no longer afford this Regressive-Left double standard. The only person to blame for rape is the rapist. Employment and education among migrant males will be a more conducive and far more consistent approach than asking European women to change how they dress or when they go out.

Norway has led the way here, offering voluntary nationwide classes that expand upon Norwegian social and sexual norms to newly arrived migrant men. The German border town of Passau in Bavaria, has already started a similar program for male refugees, while Danish politicians aim to approve the same measure after a string of attacks in Denmark. Among other measures, it is my view that such classes should be mandatory for new arrivals across the continent. These classes should form part of a citizenship, integration, and employment course, before residency permits are provided. In any case, they would help refugees come to grips with the strange new world they have just fled to, and can only make their job prospects better.

Former Israeli prime minster Golda Meir may have done and said many things people disagree with, but one of her stances is difficult to argue with. When there was an outbreak of nighttime assaults against women in Israel, a minister in the cabinet suggested a curfew to keep women in after dark. “But it’s the men who are attacking the women,” she retorted. “If there’s to be a curfew, let the men stay at home, not the women.”

The alternative would be to lay the seeds of the very same cultural attitudes in Europe that many migrants have been fleeing from in counties like Syria and Afghanistan. That would be sheer madness.
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Vainamoinen: Thanks, up to that point, I've really had enough of that. Ludicrous proposals of 74 as a retirement age aren't connected to the quality of German's workers.

Germany's population number is dropping rapidly. Somehow we don't procreate quickly enough to keep a steady population. That means that tomorrow's workforce may not be able to sustain the older retired generation. That's the problem. One solution is to raise retirement age.

Another way out is immigrants, which naturally comes with a whole new set of problems. A way out it would still be.
That's not the truth by far. Fewer workers are producing more and more all the time while banks, stock markets and other finance "hubs" create enormous amounts of wealth out of essentially thin air. The western world have never been richer. It's a wealth distribution problem mostly.
For the sake of statistics, the International Organisation for Migrations has revealed the demographic numbers for the first 11 months of 2015.

Here's the breakdown:

69% of men
13% of women
18% of minors (half of them are from unknown family and 90% are male)

Original article in French from a mainstream newspaper:
http://www.lepoint.fr/editos-du-point/michel-colomes/migrants-la-possible-bombe-demographique-08-01-2016-2007993_55.php
A lot of them already have or will be given weapons - firearms.
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noncompliantgame: A lot of them already have or will be given weapons - firearms.
I stole the blue suit from Judas and currently wear it:

Please, keep close to the facts (with a neutral POV preferably), I don't want this thread to be deleted. Thanks ;)