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General discussionMalaysia Airlines MH17 Missing Over Ukraine(207 posts)(207 posts)
(207 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 21, 2014
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011284mm: ...My biggest question is why are the US so quick to blame the "rebels", and were are their Ukrainian CIA agents?... You are in Germany and you should know that history is filled with double dealings...
The USA is always looking for a way to join a war, even if it means starting it. As for Putin, he knows that they are broke....
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Trilarion: I'm not a fan of conspiration theories and for double dealings - always the attacker is trying to divert attention (Germany in 1939, US in 2003, Russia in 2014, ...). I don't think the US is always looking for a war. Why should anyone? You'll see that the US will avoid any direct part and the burden is on the Western European countries now (in my opinion). Russia however has already started the war with the annexation of Crimea and sending troops there in the beginning. It's a new kind of war where even big powers operate in disguise.

Let's just look at the past weeks. How many airplanes have been shoot down by Ukrainian forces and how many by pro-Russian forces? The probability that pro-Russian forces wanted to just shoot down another airplane is very, very high if you ask me. But of course the full truth might never be known to us. And without equipment (and people) from Russia all their operations would not be possible. They even might be beaten already.

Just look at the contrast between Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian forces in Crimea just went away from their own land when they saw that the only thing they can achieve is sheding blood. In Eastern Ukraine where Ukrainians and Russian live together in about equal parts some people just took weapons and started shooting and killing in the name of whatever.. In the end they cannot really hope to win unless Russian troops invade too.

From very far away it's just a war between Russia and Ukraine and Russia started it and invaded Ukraine (the Crimean part) and now is involved guerilla-style in Eastern Ukraine by giving material support.

It's not the people on Maidan who started the killing or shoot down an airplane.
I totally agree, because the Ukrainians in the east do not have planes or helicopters for fighting. So why would the national guards (I heard the military or militia actual doesn't want to fight their own people in the east) shoot down planes at all or use such equipment sponsored by EU-billions? ;)
Posted July 21, 2014
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DarrkPhoenix: No legislative power at the very least. I'm not familiar enough with how much autonomy defense ministers have been granted by the current government, although if you can point me to any key decision-making powers the defense minister has which have been used to impose any kind of nationalist agenda then I'd be quite interested to hear about it.

Also, I assume the defense minister you're referring to is Ihor Tenyukh, who was defense minister for all of one month (end of February to end of March). I haven't been able to find any reference to the two more recent defense ministers (Koval and Heletey) being associated with far-right elements.
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jamotide: Yes you can bet that the defense minister in a brewing civil war probably had some sort of power.^^
The government immediately after the coup was a coalition by Svoboda and some other parties. And svoboda is as far right as you can get. They aren't even far right anymore, they are outright Neo-nazis, their previous name was "Social-National Party" and their logo was the Wolfsangel.
So your claim (and the state departments) that far right elements had no power at no point is a lie. We are used to that from the state department, but you should be better than that.
Oh, please, spare me the details about Svoboda in power. Most power was concentrated in the hands of as of then imprisoned Yulia Timoshenko's political party, which is not even remotely far right. Judging by your words, Svoboda had the most power and all they were managed to do was the idiotic language law cancellation. Really. People from other countries claiming they know something about mine...
Posted July 21, 2014
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F3real: There is so much propaganda about this right now it's incredible.
I had some fun with reading translated or auto-translated (not really good but you get the gist) articles from Russian popular newspapers and I can say that our media is one sided, but Russias media tops it easily. It's not surprising but anyway it's interesting. Some examples: All Ukrainians are fascists, the US is constantly conspiring to bring Russia down, down, down and the government in Kyiw is a puppet regime waging a war of extermination. The pro-Russian leader in East Ukraine is translated as Prime Minister of his state and every thing he says is pure gold while everything most the West is most doubtful if not outright wrong. Nothing else, no controversy, no self-doubt or critical review of their own policy on the articles of the frontpages.

It'll be interesting to see it in 10-20 years. My guess is that Russia will come out as supporter of terrorism, but who knows.

For example from Isvestia: http://worldmeets.us/izvestia000056.shtml
"Kuznetsov says the West, by maneuvering Russia into taking military action in the southeast, seeks to insidiously draw her into the same pattern now emerging in the Middle East. This distracts Russia from more truly urgent tasks like developing the Far East, attracting skilled foreign workers, and building universities, etc. ..." ... which says that I wanted (tricked) Russia to invade in Crimea (nothing could be more far from the truth).
Posted July 21, 2014
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AzureKite: Oh, please, spare me the details about Svoboda in power. Most power was concentrated in the hands of as of then imprisoned Yulia Timoshenko's political party, which is not even remotely far right. Judging by your words, Svoboda had the most power and all they were managed to do was the idiotic language law cancellation. Really. People from other countries claiming they know something about mine...
Yes lets rather get the info from one of surely totally impartial parties of the conflict like you.
Posted July 21, 2014
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AzureKite: Oh, please, spare me the details about Svoboda in power. Most power was concentrated in the hands of as of then imprisoned Yulia Timoshenko's political party, which is not even remotely far right. Judging by your words, Svoboda had the most power and all they were managed to do was the idiotic language law cancellation. Really. People from other countries claiming they know something about mine...
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jamotide: Yes lets rather get the info from one of surely totally impartial parties of the conflict like you.
Nice argument, oh totally objective all-knowing being. So what is it that I am being accused of here?
Post edited July 21, 2014 by AzureKite
Posted July 21, 2014
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AzureKite: Nice argument, oh totally objective all-knowing being. So what is it that I am being accused of here?
Nothing yet, but soon you might be accused of disseminating propaganda against the other side!
Posted July 21, 2014
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VABlitz: So, my impression of this is that the Pro-Russian Ukranians want to rejoin the Russian empire? And the western part wants to stay Ukraine? So, if that's the case either break this country in two or have the minority Pro-Russians move to Russia...problem solved. Seems like a civil war that Russia, the US, and everyone else should stay the hell out of.
Can we setup some Call of Duty servers in Ukraine and let them battle this out in a non-destructive way? Well, except for the broken gamepads, mice, and keyboards.
This is the core of the problem. The pro-Russian Ukrainian do not want to move their households, they want only the first option and the other Ukrainians don't want that. Then instead of only playing war, they actually make war. Russia supports the pro-Russians and the West is supporting Ukraine. There is no real solution in sight that will work. Many more innocent people will die.
Posted July 21, 2014
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jamotide: So your claim (and the state departments) that far right elements had no power at no point is a lie. We are used to that from the state department, but you should be better than that.
Sorry, but you obviously have zero clue about the subject - Svoboda has no influence even in west of Ukraine where it came from. Also, they are closer to lying bunch of assholes or clowns rather than to Nazi's - every their attempt on acting like true radicals fails shortly and miserably but of course that doesn't stop russian propaganda from exaggerating their image and influence :)
Posted July 21, 2014
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VABlitz: So, my impression of this is that the Pro-Russian Ukranians want to rejoin the Russian empire? And the western part wants to stay Ukraine? So, if that's the case either break this country in two or have the minority Pro-Russians move to Russia...problem solved. Seems like a civil war that Russia, the US, and everyone else should stay the hell out of.
Can we setup some Call of Duty servers in Ukraine and let them battle this out in a non-destructive way? Well, except for the broken gamepads, mice, and keyboards.
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Trilarion: This is the core of the problem. The pro-Russian Ukrainian do not want to move their households, they want only the first option and the other Ukrainians don't want that. Then instead of only playing war, they actually make war. Russia supports the pro-Russians and the West is supporting Ukraine. There is no real solution in sight that will work. Many more innocent people will die.
This, "I want to belong to Russia" was only shortly after the Crimea was taken over with Russian military troops that were always stationed there. The Crimea became Ukraine after the soviet union ~1954, but I don't think many non-Russians lived there.

I think the rebels want autonomy from the government in Kiev.
The people living there do not want the government in Kiev drive tanks into their towns, shoot their building with artillery or attack them with helicopters and fighter planes.

They are called pro-russians, because it is the only country on the plant to give them any backup.
Posted July 21, 2014
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disi: ...They are called pro-russians, because it is the only country on the plant to give them any backup.
By starting the war they are also terrorists. I can understand that nobody else wants to support them. People who use violence in an area where at best the support is 50% are very dangerous.

It's like if the Ukrainians living on Crimea would have started fighting for their land. They didn't if I remember correctly.
Post edited July 21, 2014 by Trilarion
Posted July 21, 2014
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AzureKite: Nice argument, oh totally objective all-knowing being. So what is it that I am being accused of here?
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jamotide: Nothing yet, but soon you might be accused of disseminating propaganda against the other side!
OK. Me - bias and propaganda. You - outlander receiving the information from Internet and other media. This discussion will lead us nowhere. I'm here not to convince someone about fluffy pacifistic patriots and invading stormtroopers of the Evil Empire. Let's just say neither of us knows even a flicker of truth. Just hoping that relatives of the crashed plane passengers will know it someday. Though it will not give them comfort anyway.

As of this moment there is no exact location of the plane's "black boxes" and OSCE experts have limited access to the crash site.
Post edited July 21, 2014 by AzureKite
Posted July 21, 2014
I've said my piece on this matter - my belief is that is was an accidental shooting by an inexperienced militia who have made the problem worse by endeavouring to cover it up. The result was half a dozen Russians PMing me to try and convince me that it was somehow the Ukrainian army and a mass cover-up.

I'll just add at this point that this thread makes me deeply sad - not only with all the paranoid conspiracy theorists that seem to be all over the place here on both sides of the equation, but also with the Russians here, for whom I otherwise had a certain respect for on these forums for well-reasoned discussion and who I honestly considered to be capable of more critical thought.

Seeing otherwise apparently logical and well-educated people reduced to this scares me, because while I thought news reports about the actual effect of the Russian propaganda machine were exaggerated, it indicates the contrary to me.

(And please, do not send me PMs trying to assure me of the Russian government's benevolent intentions - it's bizarre at best, degrading at worst - all I will do is either ignore you or tell you to fuck off).
Posted July 21, 2014
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jamyskis: I've said my piece on this matter - my belief is that is was an accidental shooting by an inexperienced militia who have made the problem worse by endeavouring to cover it up.
This particular part about militia isn't quite true. Surely, it was a gravely mistake on part of whoever did this. The initial intention was obviously enemy's military plane (transport or other). But AA weaponry such as Buk is a complex mechanism and a whole bunch of machines, not only the launcher part loaded with rockets. It has to have a knowledgable and coordinated crew, which hardly can be named inexperienced militia by any stretch of the imagination. Either active or ex-military of particular specialization.
Posted July 21, 2014
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jamyskis: Seeing otherwise apparently logical and well-educated people reduced to this scares me, because while I thought news reports about the actual effect of the Russian propaganda machine were exaggerated, it indicates the contrary to me.
you couldn't even imagine :( i had to cease communication with few of my good friends from Russia because of this, they couldn't stop bringing up the subject constantly.
Posted July 21, 2014
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XenSavage: you couldn't even imagine :( i had to cease communication with few of my good friends from Russia because of this, they couldn't stop bringing up the subject constantly.
I'm sorry to hear about that. I don't have many acquaintances left in Russia, but the few that I know there have actually managed to resist it, and have said that the propaganda onslaught is relentless. I remember them telling me back during the last election that they actually did not remember seeing any political broadcasts on any party except on Jedinaja Rossija, and that those broadcasts came in thick and fast).

Other than that, they prefer to keep away from political matters, which I would say is probably a wise decision for them.
Post edited July 21, 2014 by jamyskis
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionMalaysia Airlines MH17 Missing Over Ukraine(207 posts)(207 posts)
(207 posts)