And the Vincennes was in Iranian territorial waters as well when they did their shoot down. IranAir655 was not the US's most glorious moment, mistaking a scheduled airbus slowly ascending for a fast moving F14 that was diving because, basically, a highly trained tech didn't know how to use his equipment then panicked is not a great look.

On the intercepted phone calls, they're distinctly questionable. The US couldn't intercept Russian military messages during the Crimean invasion cite, original WSJ is paywalled, thanks Rupert) so there's no realistic chance that the SBU can suddenly intercept Russian colonels talking to covert operatives.

Well, in a WW3 nobody would win. Maybe the scorpions ;)

I'm afraid that no one takes full responsibility for what happened, so we can hardly expect that helps to ceased Ukraine crisis soon

WTF how can you compare a HERO to a terrorist? /sarcasm off

My sorrow for all innocents who died in this shoot down airplane. You didn't deserve to die.

They would have the biggest motive since they already shoot at Ukrainian airplanes before and Ukraine on the other hand has no reason to shoot at pro-russian airplanes because they have none. In the end the culprit may not be 100% identifiable though.

It's a war there and if it was the pro-russians then those who delivered the rockets to them which are most probably Russians because there are hardly other supporters there have guilt too.

And we all didn't do enough in the past to stop this war going that far. Starting a war and that's what the pro-russians did is always a bad idea.

You do realize, that ex-USSR countries military complex is closely intertwined (communications tech included). If US couldn't, it doesn't mean others can't. Besides, those talks are nothing confidential, just reports. And as Russia actually doesn't give an F (what a news) about what others think and would blatantly lie about such situations, I'm not convinced that these recordings are fake. But who cares anyway. EU will swallow and eat this, and then will continue to pressure our gov't for "talks" with so-called rebels. All to the satisfaction of our slavic neighbour. Just business, nothing personal.

It has been cut since beginning of this year or even much much longer. The threat level of Russia has increased strongly. In the current form it is seen as a great danger for its surrounding. Unfortunately it also has nuclear weapons that can destroy the whole planet several times over and over again. Let's just pray that Putin is just mean and not also mad.

Makes me wonder why it was so close to the *warzone* area - thought most airlines would have given it a very wide berth.
Does it seem the russians seem to be itching for a war or something lately?. Putin doesnt seem like the peaceful sort

This will significantly change the political situation if it can be proved that pro-Russian separatists shot the plane down.
For one, it will involve other nations not previously in it as their nationals will have died on the plane - Malaysian, French, UK, American, Dutch are said to have been aboard.
And since it is kind of an open secret that Russia has been supplying the separatists, Russia is going to end up with egg on its face.
I think Putin wants a return to the USSR, and is empire building. So let's hope he doesn't misjudge and try another land grab somewhere where the other countries will have to respond in military force.

After how they took over Crimea or northern Georgia and all the egg in the face that follows I think they probably don't care very much. They are choosing the path to isolation since quite some time and there is probably nothing we can do about it. The main concern should be that no other war happens and this war ends as fast as possible (preferably without an invasion of Russian troops). If Russia goes mad it might well be the end of the world as we know it. Supporting the pro-russians with weapons and letting everyone over the border already was a dick move that pays off in many civilian casualties.

I don't think such decision making lies wholely with the airlines. Usually it is with the responsible air control agencies (here Eurocontrol) to lay down the routes and decide which airspaces are to be closed.

And just because there is a conflict doesn't necessarily demand for such an action. Civilian planes usually fly far higher than the common anti-air missiles can reach. At least those that most of such forces usually have access to. And they cross on determined and known routes with a transponder signal identifying them.

Actually the Ukrainians claimed yesterday that one of their jets had been shot down by Russian jets, so they'd have a reason for shooting as well- and they're not without form having shot down an airliner themselves in 2001.

Misinformation all around anyway, Ukrainians claimed that the rebels didn't have any buks now claim they do, the rebels claimed they do and now claim they don't, Ukraine says they have none in the area (irrelevant since it could just as easily be an S400 for all we actually know, and they have massive range; but also rubbish because there's pictures of a Ukrainian Buk trundling through recaptured Sloviansk...) when they certainly would if they really thought there were Russian jets in their airspace.

Nah, that's... well, wrong. Firstly, and most importantly, it wasn't just the US that was caught off guard over Crimea, it was Ukraine as well. Secondly, tech evolves very quickly, so they won't be using the equivalent of brick cell phones and 486s from the early 90s- if they were the NSA/ CIA would have cracked it like an egg. Cryptographic software has advanced massively over the past twenty years, and that and the chips are the important parts. Thirdly, saying the Russians are using straight common equipment with Ukraine is just bonkers. It's like saying that because the US sells comms equipment to, say, Egypt it means that Egypt can read US comms.

And it seems extremely unlikely that if they were using covert operatives talking to their covert handlers they'd not use covert communications as well.

Oh, yeah. Let's elaborate on things of past. Made a grieveous error once, blamed for life. 2001 has nothing to do with this. And considering that no cowardly prick from our army wants to start a full on war, I doubt AA units had any orders to shoot down russian jets, especially if you know how many military helis, planes and drones illegally cross Ukraine's airspace from eastern border without being shot down every day. Well, drones are being shot, but they have their markings removed. Though it is obvious that no freaking rebel could just easily have them out of his bedroom chest.

Firstly, not everyone there is covert op with an encoding radio. This is bs. Secondly, everything encoded can be decoded. And Crimea isn't a good example. Capturing radio transmissions there wouldn't change a thing really. After all, "there are no russian troops in Crimea".

I don't think they have a reason to shoot at Russian airplanes. Wouldn't that start a bigger war? Also comparing to incidents in the past is only helpful to a certain extent because well, the situations are different.

On the other hand pro-russians have shoot down several airplanes of Ukraine already while Ukraine has shoot down none so far. Ukraine has no need to defend against attacking airplanes because there were none so far. Pro-russians attacked airplanes all the time. I would say this makes the chance for the pro-russians to have killed these civilians much higher.

It doesn't make it 100% sure but at least the question if the pro-russians have such capable missile might get answered in the future.

For the war the only important question is if Russia will invade or not. If not the pro-russian military will most probably succumb and if yes, the question is how the rest of the world would answer.

My guess is that Russia doesn't dare an open confrontationen, so the whole war will end with nothing but a lot of dead civilians. The sneaky support from Russia prolonges the fighting and the increases the number of casualties but only open action would change the outcome. In the end East Ukraine will be left in ruins. This is either the goal of the terrorists or they overestimate their abilities greatly or they hope for Russia to join forces. Russia never condemned the fighting and supported them through the open borders, so either they are ready to invade Ukraine or they just like East Ukraine to burn. Time to despair.