Posted November 15, 2016
DarkoD13
No Strings On Me
Registered: Feb 2013
From Greece
Bookwyrm627
ADD Jumping Bean
Registered: Nov 2013
From United States
Posted November 15, 2016
On a different topic: you've been pretty quiet. What do you think of the different conversations that have occurred thus far? Who are your top scum picks at the moment? Alternatively, who are your top town picks?
drealmer7
finding balance
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted November 15, 2016
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buy that, it will save you $$$$$$$$ on the electric bill, make everything MUCH WARMER (and a healthier warm because it won't be DRY DRY air) than space heaters - JUST DO IT - you won't be sorry! it's the best investment you'll make / have made in years, no doubts
catching up...
bler144
μαϊμού
Registered: Dec 2013
From United States
Nachomamma8
killed yogsloth
Registered: Aug 2016
From United States
Posted November 15, 2016
So an example of bad setup speculation: "There were actions on N0? I didn't know that!". Don't do that.
DarkoD13
No Strings On Me
Registered: Feb 2013
From Greece
Posted November 15, 2016
(paraphrasing)
Assuming you're town, do not mistake huge walls of texts for participation/contribution.
The Lifthrasil/drealmer7 "clash" has been the most interesting interaction to me so far. Not disregarding the rest, but I'd rather wait a bit on them.
I took drealmer7's RVS vote as general RVS goofiness, but the "it was a trap all along!" part does strike me as an overreaction. I also generally strongly dislike posts of the "let's not talk setup, fo'realziez, but let's do think about it real hard, you guys" variety. (major paraphrasing)
But then again, Lifthrasil casting an RVS vote (even if it's "slightly less RVS") at a stage where people were having actual arguments and had begun voting for real kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Assuming you're town, do not mistake huge walls of texts for participation/contribution.
The Lifthrasil/drealmer7 "clash" has been the most interesting interaction to me so far. Not disregarding the rest, but I'd rather wait a bit on them.
I took drealmer7's RVS vote as general RVS goofiness, but the "it was a trap all along!" part does strike me as an overreaction. I also generally strongly dislike posts of the "let's not talk setup, fo'realziez, but let's do think about it real hard, you guys" variety. (major paraphrasing)
But then again, Lifthrasil casting an RVS vote (even if it's "slightly less RVS") at a stage where people were having actual arguments and had begun voting for real kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
bler144
μαϊμού
Registered: Dec 2013
From United States
Posted November 15, 2016
The not much has changed in 24 hours; deadline in 48 hours vote count:
Drealmer (3): Trent, Wyrm, Lift
Lift (1): Drealmer
Brasas (1): Nacho
Not voting (5): YMich, Trial, Hunter, Darko, Brasas
Maj = 6, Drealmer closest to being smurfed into the Smurfmatic Smurfmotabulator at S-3.
Deadline is Thursday 11/17 at 11:45 AM (pacific).
Let me know if your vote is not where you want it.
Drealmer (3): Trent, Wyrm, Lift
Lift (1): Drealmer
Brasas (1): Nacho
Not voting (5): YMich, Trial, Hunter, Darko, Brasas
Maj = 6, Drealmer closest to being smurfed into the Smurfmatic Smurfmotabulator at S-3.
Deadline is Thursday 11/17 at 11:45 AM (pacific).
Let me know if your vote is not where you want it.
trentonlf
Easily amused
Registered: Apr 2014
From United States
Posted November 15, 2016
Drealmer (3): Trent, Wyrm, Lift
Lift (1): Drealmer
Brasas (1): Nacho
Not voting (5): YMich, Trial, Hunter, Darko, Brasas
Maj = 6, Drealmer closest to being smurfed into the Smurfmatic Smurfmotabulator at S-3.
Deadline is Thursday 11/17 at 11:45 AM (pacific).
Let me know if your vote is not where you want it.
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted November 15, 2016
What a tough crowd you all are...
I guess you were not satisfied with my answer to Lift...
1 - I might be wrong, it is just D1 afterall
2 - I have not one, but two suspects... an embarassment of riches
Ergo the call for help - poke holes in the theory, comment on it - will help me decide.
Bookwyrm627: Nothing, if no one is willing to set shoulder to wagon.
... You've got a mouth, and you've got money. Point taken.
Vote gogtrial
If I'm all right, rather than just somewhat right, he's the strategic choice.
But Wyrm, you of all people should understand - you saw the Hijack slip outing JMich in the Resistance game. I see parallels here and that both reinforces my gut feel I'm on to these two, as well makes me wonder if it's some weird deja vu conf bias on my part. That's the main reason I wanted to have you all pitch in. I mean, it's not like I'm pulling punches on trial and Nacho. I can't be that oblique...
It's a team game after all... I'm not lynching anyone alone, and I don't like to feel like I'm the only one going over the top.
Team game remember? Because of this I reread trial's post, which I already replied to earlier. Check this out:
Gaah! I did not realize the implications of what it meant, in that I assumed scum was allowed to talk beforehand, but completely overlooked the possibility that town would ... have actions.
Gaah! I did not realize the implications of what it meant, in that I assumed scum was allowed to talk beforehand, but completely overlooked the possibility that town would also have actions.
It's not a data point. It's a slip.
:(
And?
I guess you were not satisfied with my answer to Lift...
1 - I might be wrong, it is just D1 afterall
2 - I have not one, but two suspects... an embarassment of riches
Ergo the call for help - poke holes in the theory, comment on it - will help me decide.
... You've got a mouth, and you've got money.
Vote gogtrial
If I'm all right, rather than just somewhat right, he's the strategic choice.
But Wyrm, you of all people should understand - you saw the Hijack slip outing JMich in the Resistance game. I see parallels here and that both reinforces my gut feel I'm on to these two, as well makes me wonder if it's some weird deja vu conf bias on my part. That's the main reason I wanted to have you all pitch in. I mean, it's not like I'm pulling punches on trial and Nacho. I can't be that oblique...
It's a team game after all... I'm not lynching anyone alone, and I don't like to feel like I'm the only one going over the top.
Team game remember? Because of this I reread trial's post, which I already replied to earlier. Check this out:
Gaah! I did not realize the implications of what it meant, in that I assumed scum was allowed to talk beforehand, but completely overlooked the possibility that town would ... have actions.
Gaah! I did not realize the implications of what it meant, in that I assumed scum was allowed to talk beforehand, but completely overlooked the possibility that town would also have actions.
It's not a data point. It's a slip.
:(
And?
Hunter65536
New GOGlin
Registered: Apr 2014
From India
Posted November 15, 2016
Gaah! I did not realize the implications of what it meant, in that I assumed scum was allowed to talk beforehand, but completely overlooked the possibility that town would ... have actions.
Gaah! I did not realize the implications of what it meant, in that I assumed scum was allowed to talk beforehand, but completely overlooked the possibility that town would also have actions.
It's not a data point. It's a slip.
@drealmer what's your take on brasas's theory? (This and the previous Shakespearean post)
@trial where's your vote leaning as of now?
gogtrial34987
Grog'tial | half-dwarf, dual-bolt crossbow
Registered: Dec 2013
From Netherlands
Posted November 16, 2016
I just happened to be around shortly after, and found the timing noteworthy, too, so reloaded continuously to figure out just how unlikely it was.
Brasas: Good post. If I'm right you do learn fast, as the above post proves, in its WIFOMy glory.
A couple of games and you'll be quite effective IMO.
Roling scum PR on a first game with open(ish) setup is terrible luck.
Still, I suspect even my oblique implications are registering perfectly for you. :)
But I would be amazed if I convince you to vote yourself... that's Yog territory... So, say you do actually vote me (pre-post edit: ooh, you did (yeah, I spent over an hour writing this due to interruptions)), and get the majority to agree with you and end up at the mislynch showing that I'm town after all, then what's your next step? What does that tell you? You mentioned "scum|Nacho is fake buddying to town|trial for the mislynch...", which I'd thought about, too. Maybe scum was feeling sorry for the poor newbie making all the mistakes? But no, I'd expect more ...professionalism? from scum.
Nachomamma8: So an example of bad setup speculation: "There were actions on N0? I didn't know that!". Don't do that. Given my post where I effectively implied that, and then Lift pointing it out so publicly, was there any way for me to do anything else which wouldn't have seemed extremely scummy? (I truly find it hard to judge for everything surrounding this subject what's scummy and not. My mind hasn't quite twisted this way yet, while 'everyone else' (those engaging with me, who actually are far from everyone) seems to be operating from a shared body of knowledge and is looking at my actions through this lens.)
DarkoD13: (paraphrasing)
Assuming you're town, do not mistake huge walls of texts for participation/contribution. Thanks, particularly for the rest of this post. I do look for quality over quantity.
I've only been able to read the last 24 hours twice, and won't have time to do more until tomorrow, so this is an unbaked analysis, but if I'd have to vote now, I'd go for either you or trent. Drealmer feels iffy, too, but trent feels iffier. I feel best about Brasas and Wyrm as town. (His pushing/voting me gives me an omgus "maybe he's scum after all!" reaction (hoping I'm using the terminology right there), but honestly, annoying though a mislynch is for town, I'd expect scum to push for a higher value target than me, so rationally I do end up at Brasas as town for real.)
So, I haven't really seen you push anyone yet, despite this promise. How come?
A couple of games and you'll be quite effective IMO.
Roling scum PR on a first game with open(ish) setup is terrible luck.
Still, I suspect even my oblique implications are registering perfectly for you. :)
But I would be amazed if I convince you to vote yourself... that's Yog territory...
Assuming you're town, do not mistake huge walls of texts for participation/contribution.
I've only been able to read the last 24 hours twice, and won't have time to do more until tomorrow, so this is an unbaked analysis, but if I'd have to vote now, I'd go for either you or trent. Drealmer feels iffy, too, but trent feels iffier. I feel best about Brasas and Wyrm as town. (His pushing/voting me gives me an omgus "maybe he's scum after all!" reaction (hoping I'm using the terminology right there), but honestly, annoying though a mislynch is for town, I'd expect scum to push for a higher value target than me, so rationally I do end up at Brasas as town for real.)
So, I haven't really seen you push anyone yet, despite this promise. How come?
Post edited November 16, 2016 by gogtrial34987
trentonlf
Easily amused
Registered: Apr 2014
From United States
Posted November 16, 2016
Unless people actually start voting we are going to have a rushed lynch or no lynch happen and neither option is good for town, so vote for whoever you find to be scummiest!! Let's do this people!
Nachomamma8
killed yogsloth
Registered: Aug 2016
From United States
Posted November 16, 2016
I had a long meeting today so got tied up at work a bit longer that I planned, catching up now. I want everyone to be aware that deadline is in two days and that's not a lot of time at all; Thursday deadline ends right about when I get out of work so it's entirely possible that I will not be around at all which means that the little piece of posting that I'm able to do today and anything that I'll do tomorrow will be the rest of my contributions a lynch and all of you who haven't expressed a strong preference for lynch (Ymich, Tril, Hunter, Darko especially); Brasas, if your preference is Trial then you need to be casing and pushing Trial and if your preference and me then you need to be casing and pushing me since we absolutely do not have time right now for me to put on my dancing shoes and go ballroom dancing as much as it would warm my heart and excite me to; I'll do my best to respond in full to what you've brought up in your beautiful play but my current focus is finding a scumread to lynch.
Nachomamma8
killed yogsloth
Registered: Aug 2016
From United States
Posted November 16, 2016
OF COURSE WATCH ME BE FuCKING WRONG! (note to those not familiar with these forums, they don't let you use ALL CAPS on a majority of CURSE words, and so if a post of yours is not going through, copy/past it while it twirls, start a new post, amend the words, and re-submit.)
But, no...not going there.
Honestly even if I come to think trent is scum this game I probably won't go after him too hard, I'll just vote him and tell my reasons and leave it alone. He and I have some soreness (to put it mmmmildly?) and I don't want to make it sorer. I'm glad to have him playing and value him as a part of this community and I won't jeopardize that.
Heck, I was already backing off from him as it was... now I'm wondering if he is the scum PR or sumth?
And what a softball at him that was. Pity he kind of fumbled it?
If it wasn't clear, I also will come back to chat more later... already took me longer than I thought to decide how to handle the drama and pathos of this scene...
But what the heck does it have to do with anything of relevance o cryptic one?
This is the only contribution that I remember from you and it's kind of ridiculous; is there really nothing in thread worthy of comment other than some newbie that was scum in a game you guys played long ago? You're reading, why not give an opinion on Trial or Wyrm or anything at all that matters?
Two smurfs smurf out of the crowd: Darko would be a good RVS target for implying that he didn't smurf the OP right away. But drealmer presents an actual reason for suspicion.
So, slightly less RVS, at least until I get a smurfy reply:
vote drealmer7
So yes, you caught something: you caught town. And yourself. Because with your OMGUS vote you just confirmed that my vote is in the right place.
Bookwyrm, what's gone downhill about my play since then? If you're referring to short posts, those are mobile work posts; during the day I follow the game during bathroom breaks and 15 minute breaks and don't have time to do anything but pick up easy questions or pick at small things that stand out to me.
Post edited November 16, 2016 by Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
killed yogsloth
Registered: Aug 2016
From United States
Posted November 16, 2016
And (as an addendum to the last post just in case they don't get merged), if it's not that some of my posts are small and not very engaged then I'd be interested in hearing why you think that I could be scum because I feel pretty fucking town right now.
Lifthrasil: If it's bait, it's a stupid one. [sarcasm]'Yea, let's vote something that anyone who wants town to win would disagree with. Then, if someone doesn't like that vote, he must be scum. Because anyone who wants town to win MUST be scum, obviously.'[/sarcasm]
So yes, you caught something: you caught town. And yourself. Because with your OMGUS vote you just confirmed that my vote is in the right place.
drealmer7: You're letting generalities cloud your judgement, just like you did with JMich in Vitek's game. Look at the individual player and don't just stick to broad general views of the game and apply them whenever 1 person falls into it, you're going to lynch town more often than scum, scum know better. That is why I was so sure JMich was town, because you don't do that IF YOU'RE SCUM. WIFOM, I know, but, that is why I used this as bait in the first place, because it's a weak-ass reason to vote me and scum would love to try to make a strong case for ME voting NO-LYNCH as SCUMMY. How can they not? I'm SO TEMPTING! (it's what I do)
Now because you were that way with JMich, is the only reason I'm not typing OMG YOU'RE OBVISCUM!!! Why did you immediately jump from "you're scum!" to "you're letting generalities cloud your judgment"? The latter seems like you think there's a pretty strong chance that he's town? And if you think that's his general playstyle, then why'd you jump on him for it considering your reason for attacking him initially was criticizing him for not taking your playstyle into account?
DarkoD13: I never really understood why no-lynch is considered pro-scum, especially on D1 when the odds of town lynching town are higher. 
JMich: Day 1, town knows nothing. So let's say they agree to no-lynch. Night 1, scum kills a townie, and any investigative role (should any exist) get a chance to act. Day 2 starts with town still knowing nothing, but with one less townie among them. Whether there is any information to be gained from investigative roles is unknown, since the role will have to claim to provide their information.
If on the other hand there is a lynch on Day 1, on Day 2 town has a lynch wagon to possibly analyze. Who pushed a bit too hard, who wanted to appear reluctant to be on the wagon, yet didn't hesitate to hammer, who tried to divert attention to someone else. That does of course mean someone will have to do a wagon analysis, but it does give town a bit more to work on during Day 2. I have a feeling you are going to hate me this game since I don't have time and I know this is going to sound terrible, but isn't Darko your brother? Why spend time explaining theory to your brother instead of time... scumhunting? Pushing? Townreading people?
Unvote: Brasas
Vote: JMich
I'm completely caught up, this is where I'm going for now. I am very appreciative for bler allowing me to multi-post like this, very very appreciative because I wouldn't have been able to do this as quickly otherwise. THANK YOU FOR TAKING A RISK ON US BLER. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
Brasas: TL:DR You overreacted by going character defense on him based on nothing much. Also you kind of contradict yourself on fishing, first setup fishing and role fishing are the same - when noobs don't do either - then they are significantly different when you are subtly (or not) advising him to beware others' questions. And you throw him a softball, perhaps hoping that mr "paying attention to others reactions to him" will distance himself from you. But he kind of fumbles the bussing. Because either he played it straight buddy instead of bus buddy - or, IMO more likely, he did distance but so filled with straight faced sarcasm that it verges on satire. And the problem with that being, such a satirical mindset is more evidence for a character that can indeed jump into this game (and at our eyes), decide to model Bler to be read as towny - up to mentioning statistics notes in an offhand comment - and overestimate the importance of the setup for scum. And at this point, I'm even starting to seriously consider some of that came from him being scum PR, which looking at the matrix (see trial, this is example of "good" setup fishing) has to be the roleblocker. So he was most likely fishing for column A versus row 2.
So Nacho... history repeats itself? You didn't have much time to coach him N0? Is it from guilt you are overcompensating? First of all, I appreciated the play. It was lovely, and it finally made me feel like you didn't hate my guts.
Secondly, you're the one overreacting with the "character defense" stuff; I type most people I play with in order to get an idea of what I expect from their scumrange. I defend players very strongly because I've been playing mafia a very long time (I don't have the skills to show it, but my god do I have the passion). When I brought up my tendency to play with newer players, I brought it up because I'm often forced in the position where I am defending people from other new players who aren't looking beyond the surface; I also constantly play with a lot of tunneling overaggressive people and there I also end up defending players a lot. I am known for defending players. My town game and my scum game are known for defending players. But your "haha you have a magical character analysis of him how do you know him if you haven't played with him before" is ridiculous; think of mafia like basketball (or any sports). Certain athletes play in different styles. You can generally judge athlete skill and style from opening moves. I'd cut my left nut off if Trial is an experienced player faking new, which means I'm comfortable making many assumptions of what he would do as scum and town.
You saying Trial "fumbled" because he joked about me townreading is ridiculous. Trial not having a read on me makes sense based on him being lost early game; if he came out with the "oh you're so town you know I'm town!" after saying that the only people who knew he was town were scum then I'd lambast him. If he came out with "oh you're so scum for defending me!!" then that's something significant to dig into; I'd ask him why he thought my defense of him was unbelievable so on and so forth. Saying that I was a great guy but not having a read on me makes absolute sense from a lost town perspective; explain how the hell that was a fumble?
As for your little bit about my "guilt", I'd imagine you know me better than that. I bussed Lift the entire game. I bussed Dessimu instantly. I stuck my neck out for RW a tiny little bit thanks to promises of glory but you better be damn sure that I'd bus the hell out of him if alive the next day. The weakness in my scumgame is giving too little mercy to partners, not too much, which I'd imagine is something you'd be well aware of when you were literally the only partner I didn't push that entire game (and yet I would have if you weren't so universally townread).
So yes, you caught something: you caught town. And yourself. Because with your OMGUS vote you just confirmed that my vote is in the right place.
Now because you were that way with JMich, is the only reason I'm not typing OMG YOU'RE OBVISCUM!!!
If on the other hand there is a lynch on Day 1, on Day 2 town has a lynch wagon to possibly analyze. Who pushed a bit too hard, who wanted to appear reluctant to be on the wagon, yet didn't hesitate to hammer, who tried to divert attention to someone else. That does of course mean someone will have to do a wagon analysis, but it does give town a bit more to work on during Day 2.
Unvote: Brasas
Vote: JMich
I'm completely caught up, this is where I'm going for now. I am very appreciative for bler allowing me to multi-post like this, very very appreciative because I wouldn't have been able to do this as quickly otherwise. THANK YOU FOR TAKING A RISK ON US BLER. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
So Nacho... history repeats itself? You didn't have much time to coach him N0? Is it from guilt you are overcompensating?
Secondly, you're the one overreacting with the "character defense" stuff; I type most people I play with in order to get an idea of what I expect from their scumrange. I defend players very strongly because I've been playing mafia a very long time (I don't have the skills to show it, but my god do I have the passion). When I brought up my tendency to play with newer players, I brought it up because I'm often forced in the position where I am defending people from other new players who aren't looking beyond the surface; I also constantly play with a lot of tunneling overaggressive people and there I also end up defending players a lot. I am known for defending players. My town game and my scum game are known for defending players. But your "haha you have a magical character analysis of him how do you know him if you haven't played with him before" is ridiculous; think of mafia like basketball (or any sports). Certain athletes play in different styles. You can generally judge athlete skill and style from opening moves. I'd cut my left nut off if Trial is an experienced player faking new, which means I'm comfortable making many assumptions of what he would do as scum and town.
You saying Trial "fumbled" because he joked about me townreading is ridiculous. Trial not having a read on me makes sense based on him being lost early game; if he came out with the "oh you're so town you know I'm town!" after saying that the only people who knew he was town were scum then I'd lambast him. If he came out with "oh you're so scum for defending me!!" then that's something significant to dig into; I'd ask him why he thought my defense of him was unbelievable so on and so forth. Saying that I was a great guy but not having a read on me makes absolute sense from a lost town perspective; explain how the hell that was a fumble?
As for your little bit about my "guilt", I'd imagine you know me better than that. I bussed Lift the entire game. I bussed Dessimu instantly. I stuck my neck out for RW a tiny little bit thanks to promises of glory but you better be damn sure that I'd bus the hell out of him if alive the next day. The weakness in my scumgame is giving too little mercy to partners, not too much, which I'd imagine is something you'd be well aware of when you were literally the only partner I didn't push that entire game (and yet I would have if you weren't so universally townread).
Post edited November 16, 2016 by Nachomamma8