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amok: What Valve and others are worried about is not this at all, but the Windows App Store and all that comes with it.
To be honest, such concerns have really proven to be unfounded so far. There hasn't been one single notable commercial success in the Windows Store to date.

That being said, I do understand Gabe Newell's concerns about a potential storefront monopoly held by Microsoft. As much as I dislike the stranglehold that Valve has over the PC gaming market, handing that to Microsoft with its past history would be very much a case of out of the frying pan and into...a nuclear explosion.

And it's not entirely unfeasible that Microsoft may abuse its position of power to force Windows Store adoption.
Post edited December 11, 2013 by jamyskis
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amok: No, both those are working perfectly well for touch-screens, and if you have one and get used to it, they work much better and faster then the old system. I also found it more unitive, from a HCI perspective, I would say that this was a nice step forward.
Nothing but subjective opinion. Win8 was specifically designed for hipster tablet market at the expense of desktop PC users.

These are not the points of concern at all.
Except that they are. Most of the criticism against Windows 8, and indeed the reason it's selling like crap, is because of the disorientation felt by traditional Windows users from the touch-orientation of Metro and the removal of the Start Menu, this is fact. It's why the adoption rate of Win8 is so low and it's the most common complaint.

Windows is gonna sell like shit until Start Menu is back and Metro is ded

What Valve and others are worried about is not this at all, but the Windows App Store and all that comes with it.
Indeed, but that isn't the only reason PC gamers don't like Win8. I wasn't even talking about Valve or SteamOS, I'm talking about Linux in general, as a viable alternative to Windows. Valve is doing some stupid "living room experience" crap with gamepads and I couldn't care less for it.
Post edited December 11, 2013 by Crosmando
@peoples talking about job to port games and so on, I just want to inform again that couple of games already on GOG already have a Linux working version, either on the developer website, with Humble Bundle or on Steam. GOG just could take them and offer them.

Porting games not already existing on Linux is another thing, independent.

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Crosmando: Can anyone here recommend (hypothetically) a Linux distro which is good for newcomers to Linux yet very open?

Also does anyone here run Linux on a hard-drive partition while also having Windows on a hard-drive? Are their problems that can emerge from doing this?
Those already advised before (Ubuntu, Mint), Debian, Fedora, and one I had good feedback too but never tried myself : Mageia.

And you can try it before with LiveCD, LiveUSB, Virtual Machines or even Wubi for some of them like Ubuntu/Debian.
Check for example http://www.linuxliveusb.com/
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amok: No, both those are working perfectly well for touch-screens, and if you have one and get used to it, they work much better and faster then the old system. I also found it more unitive, from a HCI perspective, I would say that this was a nice step forward.
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Crosmando: Nothing but subjective opinion. Win8 was specifically designed for hipster tablet market at the expense of desktop PC users.
and that is not a subjective opinion at all. :)

I think it the matter of habit, nothing else.

These are not the points of concern at all.
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Crosmando: Except that they are. Most of the criticism against Windows 8, and indeed the reason it's selling like crap, is because of the disorientation felt like traditional Windows users from the touch-orientation of Metro and the removal of the Start Menu, this is fact. It's why the adoption rate of Win8 is so low and it's the most common complaint.
not for those who are worried about the future of Windows as a closed platform, these are UI issues and have nothing to do with the system being open or closed. Which is the concern of Valve and it's ilk, and the reason why they look at Linux. It has nothing to do about touch screen interface.


What Valve and others are worried about is not this at all, but the Windows App Store and all that comes with it.
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Crosmando: Indeed, but that isn't the only reason PC gamers don't like Win8.
some do and some don't... right now in the Steam Hardware Survey, W8 is the second most used OS, with W7 on top.

edit - the concern Valve and others have with W8 is not what it is, but what it may become (walled gareden)
Post edited December 11, 2013 by amok
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Crosmando:
Windows is gonna sell like shit until Start Menu is back and Metro is ded
Sadly, Windows will never gonna sell like shit if it continue to be sold linked on pretty much every computer on the market. And that's a big problem. I see every peoples which don't like W8 but got it on their new laptop and don't want to worry about formating and trying to install another OS.
That's what I mentioned, they could turn it into a closed platform like iOS. The issue is that you seem to think that making Win8 touch/tablet orientated with Metro is a completely isolated issue from the implications of the Windows App Store. They aren't, they represent the same thing, going in a touch-tablet direction like Apple may very well be what MS is doing. They could try and unify their OS somewhat between devices, closed platform Windows on tablet/computer/etc, the only way to buy things is through Windows App Store.
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Crosmando:
Windows is gonna sell like shit until Start Menu is back and Metro is ded
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Porkepix: Sadly, Windows will never gonna sell like shit if it continue to be sold linked on pretty much every computer on the market. And that's a big problem. I see every peoples which don't like W8 but got it on their new laptop and don't want to worry about formating and trying to install another OS.
and it is also because W8 interface actually can work very nicely when you first get used to it.

I have 2 laptops, one Dell with W7 and a Lenovo touchscreen with W8. After using the Lenovo for a while, I start poking the screen on the Dell and wondering why things take so long time...
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Porkepix: Sadly, Windows will never gonna sell like shit if it continue to be sold linked on pretty much every computer on the market. And that's a big problem. I see every peoples which don't like W8 but got it on their new laptop and don't want to worry about formating and trying to install another OS.
They can't survive just selling Windows OEMs to retailers alone, as those are sold at a much lower rate.
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Crosmando: That's what I mentioned, they could turn it into a closed platform like iOS. The issue is that you seem to think that making Win8 touch/tablet orientated with Metro is a completely isolated issue from the implications of the Windows App Store. They aren't, they represent the same thing, going in a touch-tablet direction like Apple may very well be what MS is doing. They could try and unify their OS somewhat between devices, closed platform Windows on tablet/computer/etc, the only way to buy things is through Windows App Store.
no, touch screen interface is UI and HCI issues. The rest is conjunctions, and nothing but what you want it to be. In your case it is the same, I do not think so and after used it for a while I see how it is making the UI very user-friendly.
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skeletonbow: ... You're making the mistake of thinking that Valve is switching to an entirely new and untested platform and abandoning all other platform
I never said that anyone should abandon anything. However I think that Linux is not very popular at the moment. Therefore it isn't clear if people will readily use it. It's risky. I agree that it's an expansion.

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skeletonbow: So what you're suggesting, is that if Valve puts out a new Linux offering as an addition to what they do right now, they are putting all of their eggs in one basket and it is risky and likely to fail, the world will come to an end for them, etc., however you would like to see GOG do the same thing essentially however if GOG does it, it is diversifying by not putting all eggs in one basket? :)
It's just business. If you make a wrong decision than surely it can mean the end of the world to some of your employees. However I advice GOG to also support Linux in order to be prepared if Windows should go down.

What this needs to make sense is: I think, the scale. GOG supporting Linux with some of their games is a small operation. Valve developing a Console based on Linux is a much bigger operation and requires a larger chunk of the investment money, even if you have much more money from the beginning.

So I think it's risky for both and there is a reward for both so they should both try it, but for Valve there will be much more at stake. I don't want GOG to develop a GOG-OS.

Valve is taking the higher chances here even if GOG would start supporting Linux now. But if this brave move of Valve succeeds which I'm quite unsure about, they will be rewarded heavily. So it's worth it.

What GOG does or doesn't seems quite small compared to this. They can surely wait if they prefer this.

I wouldn't wait. I would offer the Linux support for those games that are easily supported (DosBox, Scumm, native clients) to increase sales, bind customers and to have much more experience in case Windows OS falters or Linux OS takes off which might or might not be the case.

We agree that GOG should do it the low risk way, but obviously we differ in how much action on the side of GOG this really includes.

Generally: If you wait too long, at some point always others will snatch away the prize.
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Trilarion: I never said that anyone should abandon anything. However I think that Linux is not very popular at the moment. Therefore it isn't clear if people will readily use it. It's risky. I agree that it's an expansion.
Linux is immensely popular, it runs a large percentage of Internet infrastructure out there, major Internet services, people's home routers, your smart TV, the majority of smartphones, tablets and other devices and all sorts of other appliances. Every single person uses Linux every day if not directly, indirectly with or without knowing it.

If you mean "popular as a desktop operating system" however, then I'd agree with you that it is not popular as that, but that is somewhat irrelevant to what Valve is doing with SteamOS. Valve's Steam Machines are being marketed as a console which is just the guts of a PC inside of it. The fact it will run Linux is just a minor detail for the most part and the popularity of Linux is somewhat irrelevant. Almost every new console coming out from any video game company runs a new operating system that has never been used in anything before and wont ever be used in anything ever again except that one console and the popularity of the particular OS they put in that console is 0 before the console goes on the market. People who buy consoles buy them for the games they have on them not what OS they run inside traditionally. By using Linux instead of writing an OS from scratch, a company gets the benefit of all the work put into Linux already without having to reinvent an OS for themselves which is quite an advantage.

One of the reasons IMHO why Linux hasn't been used more for this in the past is that the traditional companies that make consoles want their systems intentionally to be proprietary and exclusive and do not want to share with other companies the technology nor have to contribute their changes and customizations back due to the GPL license for example. For those companies that are more open about what they're doing however Linux is perhaps the best choice available for a company to roll out their own custom appliance if they are embracing this openness as Valve is. Valve unlike other console makers - does not want to be in the hardware business, they want to merely provide a prototype for other companies to use to make hardware, and Linux is a great thing to use for interoperability with an open platform.

The "console" minded people out there largely wont even know what operating system is under the hood nor will they care. The other people who are likely to care about Steam Machines are people who are already using, or interested in Linux in some way. The "popularity" of Linux to the unwashed masses out there as a desktop operating system is rather irrelevant as a deciding factor for people who already use the system or have some other personal interest in it.

Valve isn't just creating a system for themselves, they are creating a new ecosystem with which a multitude of vendors can and will provide hardware, and a number have already stepped up to do so. There are also people who will just want SteamOS itself without buying hardware and they're another market. And then of course are the rest of the existing Linux userbase who do want games and are happy to just use the Steam client on their existing Linux OS and will benefit from the multitude of game titles being brought to Linux.

While there is risk of course, with Linux already outpacing Mac according to Valve and they haven't even released SteamOS or Steam Machines yet, I'd say the risk is rather low. As the number of titles rises for Linux it is likely to only outpace Mac even more, split between existing Linux users and people just interested in the Steam console when it comes out, or running SteamOS on their existing PC. It will be interesting to see the numbers.


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Trilarion: It's just business. If you make a wrong decision than surely it can mean the end of the world to some of your employees. However I advice GOG to also support Linux in order to be prepared if Windows should go down.
Windows is not going to vanish overnight. A company like GOG isn't going to ignore something like Linux blindly just because they don't talk about it publicly much. They probably have all sorts of Linux machines in use internally already, and probably are actively doing things with Linux already but not yet to publicly commit to anything or really say much about it. I'd be shocked if this wasn't the case. It's unrealistic to think that Windows will just go down suddenly and one must have a Linux backup plan ready to go immediately. Windows will continue to lose market share to tablets and other mobile devices, and probably some market share to Apple and to other systems like Linux but it's going to happen over time slowly with plenty of time for people to take notice and plan a business strategy for the computing paradigm du jour, be it on desktops, tablets or consoles etc.


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Trilarion: What this needs to make sense is: I think, the scale. GOG supporting Linux with some of their games is a small operation. Valve developing a Console based on Linux is a much bigger operation and requires a larger chunk of the investment money, even if you have much more money from the beginning.
Indeed, and I don't think GOG's place would be to attempt to do what Valve is right now.

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Trilarion: So I think it's risky for both and there is a reward for both so they should both try it, but for Valve there will be much more at stake. I don't want GOG to develop a GOG-OS.
All things considered I don't either.
Post edited December 11, 2013 by skeletonbow
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Trilarion: I never said that anyone should abandon anything. However I think that Linux is not very popular at the moment. Therefore it isn't clear if people will readily use it. It's risky. I agree that it's an expansion.
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skeletonbow: Linux is immensely popular,
If we take "popular" by its very meaning "for the (human) population", it's highly unpopular. If we ask a random sample on the street, chance is low they know what this is. Even among IT affine people, geeks, gamers, who at least know what it is, its not popular enough that they would use it as private PC OS (see current steam linux adoption numbers). Its maybe popular among the population of machines you described (routers, embedded devices, supercomputers).

From my point of view, as one who loves the OSS idea and uses linux professional, linux as real world experience deserves this bad reputation as PC OS.

On the postive side, another open source PC OS with the potential for better adoption had recently a positive GOG related news: Newsletters: Moar games!Moar compatibility!
Post edited December 11, 2013 by shaddim
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Porkepix: Sadly, Windows will never gonna sell like shit if it continue to be sold linked on pretty much every computer on the market. And that's a big problem. I see every peoples which don't like W8 but got it on their new laptop and don't want to worry about formating and trying to install another OS.
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Crosmando: They can't survive just selling Windows OEMs to retailers alone, as those are sold at a much lower rate.
What do you think will make you earn more money?
100 license at $150 or 10k at $15 each?

it's a fact that OEM license are cheap but are sold in really really huge quantity, a lot more than box licenses.
And honestly, who's buying legal license for its computer? Very few peoples on the private side : most of the sales are either OEM licenses and professional sales (business, pro and so on), and then a very little part to private individuals.

That's why these linked sales are really a bad thing and kill most of the possible concurrence.

Remember what happened with first netbooks : the very first ones were on Linux…then Microsoft paid to make them use a cuted Windows version called Windows Starter (a shame !)
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Porkepix: Remember what happened with first netbooks : the very first ones were on Linux…then Microsoft paid to make them use a cuted Windows version called Windows Starter (a shame !)
I think it was a little bit different. The customers plainly rejected the linux netbooks. After they found out that their prefered applications were not available (PC use case...user installs their prefered apps) for this OS and/or were repelled by the different UX they returned the netbooks.

http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-confirms-linux-netbook-returns-higher-than-anticpated
http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/laptops/buyers-give-thumbs-down-to-linux-netbooks-484642
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/08/10/05/123253/netbook-return-rates-much-higher-for-linux-than-windows
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Crosmando: Can anyone here recommend (hypothetically) a Linux distro which is good for newcomers to Linux yet very open?
Manjaro Linux is what I recommend. I use Manjaro Linux and it's damn easy to use. It being a rolling release distribution means your software e.g. your graphics drivers will be updated quite quickly. You'll always benefit from the latest updates as opposed to distros like Ubuntu or Mint which are static in nature. It comes with an office suite, video codecs, and whatever else out of the box just like Mint, adding to its ease of use.