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General discussionLet's sacrifice our children in the name of tolerance.(666 posts)(666 posts)
(666 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 26, 2016
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htown1980: I think you misunderstand how the piece of legislation works. It doesn't make it illegal to go to a bathroom that doesn't match your gender identity, it just makes it unlawful for cities to pass ordinances that permits transgender people to use public restrooms based on their gender identity.
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dtgreene: You are confusing the different parts of the law.

What you have is the following:
Part 1: Requires that multiple occupancy bathrooms/changing facilities be designated for and used only by those of a given "biological sex" (which really means "sex stated on the person's birth certificate" which, depending on the person's state of birth, may or may not be changeable). There's one sub-section that deals with schools (requiring "local boards of education" to discriminate) and another that deals with other public agencies. This is the part of the law that mandates discrimination.
Part 2: Forbids cities from imposing employment laws such as minimum wage laws.
Part 3: Forbids cities from passing stronger anti-discrimination laws than those at the state level.
Part 4: If any provision is held invalid, the rest of the act shall remain in force.
Part 5: Act effective immediately.

You can find the actual law here:

http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v4.pdf
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dtgreene:
So which part of this legislation do you think makes it illegal for a person to use a bathroom which doesn't match their birth certificate?
Posted May 26, 2016
deleted
Posted May 26, 2016
low rated
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dtgreene: You are confusing the different parts of the law.

What you have is the following:
Part 1: Requires that multiple occupancy bathrooms/changing facilities be designated for and used only by those of a given "biological sex" (which really means "sex stated on the person's birth certificate" which, depending on the person's state of birth, may or may not be changeable). There's one sub-section that deals with schools (requiring "local boards of education" to discriminate) and another that deals with other public agencies. This is the part of the law that mandates discrimination.
Part 2: Forbids cities from imposing employment laws such as minimum wage laws.
Part 3: Forbids cities from passing stronger anti-discrimination laws than those at the state level.
Part 4: If any provision is held invalid, the rest of the act shall remain in force.
Part 5: Act effective immediately.

You can find the actual law here:

So which part of this legislation do you think makes it illegal for a person to use a bathroom which doesn't match their birth certificate?
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htown1980:
Part 1. (Note that this specifically applies to government buildings, including schools, but not to private business, so if you can go to Target, there's no problem using the correct bathroom (given Target's recently re-iterated policy.)
Posted May 26, 2016
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htown1980: Part 1. (Note that this specifically applies to government buildings, including schools, but not to private business, so if you can go to Target, there's no problem using the correct bathroom (given Target's recently re-iterated policy.)
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dtgreene:
No you're misunderstanding how the legislation works. Part 1 requires that public agencies require every multiple occupancy bathroom or changing facility to be designated for and only used by persons based on their biological sex.

The legislation is directed at public agencies, not individuals going to toilets. So if a public agency fails to do that, they are in breach of the legislation, but an individual going to the wrong toilet would not be in breach of the legislation. There has to be some other legislation or regulation or ordinance that makes that act illegal (not merely unlawful or in breach of the rules).

For example, it would be perfectly acceptable for a public authority to make a rule, without the force of law, that only birth certificate women can go to a particular bathroom and if you breach that rule you must leave the premises. That public authority would be in compliance with this legislation. If a man then went to that bathroom, because it is just a rule which does not have the force of law, the act of going to that bathroom would not, in and of itself, be illegal. There would have to be some other law which made that act illegal.
Posted May 26, 2016
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Shadowstalker16: Knowing the sexual differences amounts to nothing because anyone can learn that. They cannot have the same sense of gender identity as a post puberty adult will.
People don't retain the same perception of anything during the course of their life. That's called "passage of time". A (for example) straight man's view of sex is different at 6, 12, 18, 30, 50 and 70. He doesn't stop being a man.


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TARFU: Which bathroom am I supposed to use?

I Sexually Identify As An A-10 Thunderbolt
While tarfu is a transphobic piece of shit, this is important enough to point out:

Gender is a social construct. That's what makes it important, and the reassignment medically necessary for trans people who want it, even if the justification is absolutely idiotic sometimes ("I have a woman's soul"). We don't deny people other sorts of medical care if they can't competently self-diagnose. Even if someone says "I have severe chest pain, I think my chakra is miscalibrated".

"Men" and "women" are categories which actually exist in society. The goal isn't to entertain a person's possibly dumb wish, it's to benefit society by enabling a potential waste of resources to instead function productively within it.

As for tarfu's first question, he's welcome to use any bathroom to go drown in the toilet.
Post edited May 26, 2016 by Starmaker
Posted May 26, 2016
*sigh*

Well, we managed to get to 11, almost 12 pages before the crude insults took place.

Still, I'd say it was quite an achievement. Well done, everybody. This thread, regardless of your opinion on the subject, stands as a testament that not all gamers are sociopathic mouth-breathing anti-social rejects.

A delicate topic was discussed at length in a gaming forum for quite some time, and no one threatened to kill anybody nor did the discussion devolved into such base behaviour as name calling. Well, up until now, that is.

At some points, passion did rose up & some unfortunate things were said, of which I am guilty myself, but for the most part, cool heads & civilised discourse prevailed.

Thank you, fellow GOGamiters.
Posted May 26, 2016
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Dalthnock: *sigh*

Well, we managed to get to 11, almost 12 pages before the crude insults took place.
Actually, I think the crude insults began with the content of your first post. :P
Posted May 26, 2016
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tinyE: Actually, I think the crude insults began with the content of your first post. :P
There you go again, trying so bad to trip me.

Please quote one single insult in that first post. Back up your tripe & you will have finally achieved your goal in this thread.

Go ahead, I'm waiting.
Post edited May 26, 2016 by Dalthnock
Posted May 26, 2016
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tinyE: Actually, I think the crude insults began with the content of your first post. :P
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Dalthnock: There you go again, trying so bad to trip me.
No I'm not. I don't need to. You're already doing an excellent job of it yourself. :P
Posted May 26, 2016
high rated
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Shadowstalker16: Knowing the sexual differences amounts to nothing because anyone can learn that. They cannot have the same sense of gender identity as a post puberty adult will.
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Starmaker: People don't retain the same perception of anything during the course of their life. That's called "passage of time". A (for example) straight man's view of sex is different at 6, 12, 18, 30, 50 and 70. He doesn't stop being a man.

---
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TARFU: Which bathroom am I supposed to use?

I Sexually Identify As An A-10 Thunderbolt
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Starmaker: While tarfu is a transphobic piece of shit, this is important enough to point out:

Gender is a social construct. That's what makes it important, and the reassignment medically necessary for trans people who want it, even if the justification is absolutely idiotic sometimes ("I have a woman's soul"). We don't deny people other sorts of medical care if they can't competently self-diagnose. Even if someone says "I have severe chest pain, I think my chakra is miscalibrated".

"Men" and "women" are categories which actually exist in society. The goal isn't to entertain a person's possibly dumb wish, it's to benefit society by enabling a potential waste of resources to instead function productively within it.

As for tarfu's first question, he's welcome to use any bathroom to go drown in the toilet.
Those are some serious anger issues you have there. This is just an internet forum. Stop taking things so seriously.

"Lighten up, Francis".
Posted May 26, 2016
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Starmaker:
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TARFU: Those are some serious anger issues you have there. This is just an internet forum. Stop taking things so seriously.

"Lighten up, Francis".
"You just made the list pal."
Posted May 26, 2016
I've just come into this discussion hoping to enter into a objective and rational discussion and just realised that this is politics on the GOG forums, so it's a given that it would have been hijacked by some political extreme or another.

So, here are my views on the matter:

1. I agree that transgender persons should be afforded the same rights and responsibilities as any person of their gender identity.

2. I empathise with the OP's position entirely in that the granting of such rights and responsibilities gives rise to running the risk of these rights being abused, including by individuals who aren't even genuinely transgender, but would seek to use it as a defence to excuse vile behaviour.

3. I realise that the point of this discussion is not (or is not supposed to be) about genuine transgender people specifically, but the risk that these laws might be abused for less honourable purposes.

4. I realise that some legal standard has to be set defining a transgender person, but where is the limit set? Is it sufficient for a man to stick on a dress, make-up and a pair of tights for him to legitimately claim he's transgender? It would certainly possibly be unfair to exclude individuals unable for financial or medical reasons to undergo gender reassignment surgery, and transgender people can cover the full gamut from superficial gender association (clothes and make-up) with obvious cross-gender features to full anatomical reassignment to the point where they are barely recognisable. Is it only possible to ascertain genuine gender identity disorders by psychoanalysis? How do we tell a genuine transgender person from someone seeking to abuse this right?
Post edited May 26, 2016 by jamyskis
Posted May 26, 2016
low rated
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jamyskis: I've just come into this discussion hoping to enter into a objective and rational discussion and just realised that this is politics on the GOG forums, so it's a given that it would have been hijacked by some political extreme or another.

So, here are my views on the matter:

1. I agree that transgender persons should be afforded the same rights and responsibilities as any person of their gender identity.

2. I empathise with the OP's position entirely in that the granting of such rights and responsibilities gives rise to running the risk of these rights being abused, including by individuals who aren't even genuinely transgender, but would seek to use it as a defence to excuse vile behaviour.

3. I realise that the point of this discussion is not (or is not supposed to be) about genuine transgender people specifically, but the risk that these laws might be abused for less honourable purposes.

4. I realise that some legal standard has to be set defining a transgender person, but where is the limit set? Is it sufficient for a man to stick on a dress, make-up and a pair of tights for him to legitimately claim he's transgender? It would certainly possibly be unfair to exclude individuals unable for financial or medical reasons to undergo gender reassignment surgery, and transgender people can cover the full gamut from superficial gender association (clothes and make-up) with obvious cross-gender features to full anatomical reassignment to the point where they are barely recognisable. Is it only possible to ascertain genuine gender identity disorders by psychoanalysis? How do we tell a genuine transgender person from someone seeking to abuse this right?
My solution: Don't put any blanket prohibitions on who can enter the restroom. Instead, enforce laws that make it illegal to harass or assault people in the restroom.

Alternatively, one can go further and abolish gender segregation in restrooms in the first place. Cooper Union actually did do that, replacing the bathroom signs with things like "restroom with urinals and toilets" and "restroom with toilets only".

To tell a transgender person from someone seeking to abuse the right, ask the following: Is the person *actually* abusing the right? If yes, the person is violating some other law and should be punished accordingly. If no, the person should be allowed in the bathroom (even if it means allowing a masculine-presenting cisgender man into the woman's room).
Posted May 26, 2016
low rated
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jamyskis: 2. I empathise with the OP's position entirely in that the granting of such rights and responsibilities gives rise to running the risk of these rights being abused, including by individuals who aren't even genuinely transgender, but would seek to use it as a defence to excuse vile behaviour.

3. I realise that the point of this discussion is not (or is not supposed to be) about genuine transgender people specifically, but the risk that these laws might be abused for less honourable purposes.
As I mentioned in my own post, the rights you're talking about have been granted in certain states for 5 to 20 years already and so far no abuse of those rights has been reported. This is a good thing to keep in mind before making all kinds of assumptions.
Posted May 27, 2016
low rated
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Starmaker: People don't retain the same perception of anything during the course of their life. That's called "passage of time". A (for example) straight man's view of sex is different at 6, 12, 18, 30, 50 and 70. He doesn't stop being a man.

---

While tarfu is a transphobic piece of shit, this is important enough to point out:

Gender is a social construct. That's what makes it important, and the reassignment medically necessary for trans people who want it, even if the justification is absolutely idiotic sometimes ("I have a woman's soul"). We don't deny people other sorts of medical care if they can't competently self-diagnose. Even if someone says "I have severe chest pain, I think my chakra is miscalibrated".

"Men" and "women" are categories which actually exist in society. The goal isn't to entertain a person's possibly dumb wish, it's to benefit society by enabling a potential waste of resources to instead function productively within it.

As for tarfu's first question, he's welcome to use any bathroom to go drown in the toilet.
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TARFU: Those are some serious anger issues you have there. This is just an internet forum. Stop taking things so seriously.

"Lighten up, Francis".
Do what she says.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionLet's sacrifice our children in the name of tolerance.(666 posts)(666 posts)
(666 posts)