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Narakir: Quoting the abstract :
How can something that is acquired by life experience and is fundamentally a social construction (gender) can be programmed from birth ? I'm not biologist or neurologist, but I really don't get how a child can be born knowing he is a "man" or a "woman" until someone explains what it means.
From what I understand, although I'm not a neuroscientist but have a vested interest in this particular subject, is that men and women have different brain structures which are "programmed" prior to birth. This happens by subjecting a male to androgens and not subjecting a female to androgens. In the case of transgender people, a male won't be subjected to androgens or a female will be. It's an abnormality, but it happens.

To quote the paper

"Once the differentiation of the sexual organs into male or female is settled, deter-
mined by the presence or absence of the Y chromosome of the father, the next thing
to differentiate is the brain, in particular due to the influence of sex hormones on the
developing brain cells. This involves (permanent) organizational changes, while during
puberty the brain circuits that developed in the womb are activated by sex hormones."

and if anyone wants to read the paper in more detail you can read it here
Post edited May 23, 2016 by elendiel7
This thread is way out there,man.
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dtgreene: Consider the case where the child is transgender. If you have, say, a 7 year old transgender girl who is presenting female, do you think she would be safer in the men's room or the women's room?

Consider, also, the gender swapped version, with a transgender boy; would he be safer in the men's room or the women's room?
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Shadowstalker16: How exactly is a child transgender? I've seen this coming up again and again. How does one ascertain that a child who doesn't have properly regulated hormones like an adult has is transgender? And what exactly is the permanence to being transgender? It can be a hormone imbalance that settles in a few weeks or the result of prenatal hormonal imbalance and hence, more permanent. Saying children can be trans is wrong, because subsequent hormonal changes in teen age or later may fix it.
Maybe because the child constantly insists that (if AMAB) she is a girl or (if AFAB) he is a boy?

Also, at that age, whether it is a phase or permanent isn't particularly important at that age, because there is nothing permanent that has to be done before puberty anyway.
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Narakir: I don't see what kind of parent would believe their children and not think it's just a pure childish fantasy among many. Especially since hormones aren't developed yet, that's sounds silly if not dangerous that this is even considered.
I guess you have no direct experience either. It all comes down what in our brains does determine our sex. It may well be much more than just a fantasy, especially if it doesn't go away with age. Biological gender is determined by genes and activation patterns of genes. It could well be that the developement of the brain follows a different program than that of the rest of the body by some biochemical chance. And both takes place already in the womb. Science probably knows more about this or will discover many things about it in the near future. We are just about finding out how our body really works.

If you don't see it it may be because you are missing information. Drawing conclusions then is also dangerous.

As a side note: It may well be that in the future, scientists develop a "cure" for such things. Not sure if I would like that, but I'm sure many countries in the world would (if such a pill existed) force transgender or homosexuals to take a pill that "fixes" them. It's more like a horror vision but with more knowledge comes also more power but unfortunately more responsibility too and we are not very good in that department.
NAME: tinye

AGE: 40

SEX: Yes please!
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Nope,you need to pay as Kleetus told me you are ugly as all fuck.
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Narakir: Quoting the abstract : How can something that is acquired by life experience and is fundamentally a social construction (gender) can be programmed from birth ? I'm not biologist or neurologist, but I really don't get how a child can be born knowing he is a "man" or a "woman" until someone explains what it means.
Gender is maybe a social construct, but biological sex is not. It's the outcome of a biological programm that runs since conception. It could well be that there is a female brain and a male brain already with the birth, independent of how you educate the children later on.

Maybe it's like men are powered by Windows and women by MacOS. So software is different while brain hardware is mostly the same. If this would be true and if by chance there is a mistake (a men with MacOS) you could either accept him as transgender or try to configure his MacOS so that it looks and behaves like Windows. Or maybe it is a fantasy, a Windows that thinks it is a MacOS. Future research will hopefully give some answers to these questions.
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Narakir: Quoting the abstract :

During this time, gender identity (the feeling of being a man or a woman), sexual orientation, and other behaviors are programmed.
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Narakir: How can something that is acquired by life experience and is fundamentally a social construction (gender) can be programmed from birth ? I'm not biologist or neurologist, but I really don't get how a child can be born knowing he is a "man" or a "woman" until someone explains what it means.
Gender as a social construct is a social construct.
After all, animals have gender roles too.
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elendiel7: and if anyone wants to read the paper in more detail you can read it here
That link leads to a login page for me.
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timppu: Excuuuuuse me, but I fail to see how sacrificing our children increases tolerance. Probably the opposite, in fact.
I suppose that depends on which god you sacrifice them to.
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Narakir: Quoting the abstract : How can something that is acquired by life experience and is fundamentally a social construction (gender) can be programmed from birth ? I'm not biologist or neurologist, but I really don't get how a child can be born knowing he is a "man" or a "woman" until someone explains what it means.
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Trilarion: Gender is maybe a social construct, but biological sex is not. It's the outcome of a biological programm that runs since conception. It could well be that there is a female brain and a male brain already with the birth, independent of how you educate the children later on.

Maybe it's like men are powered by Windows and women by MacOS. So software is different while brain hardware is mostly the same. If this would be true and if by chance there is a mistake (a men with MacOS) you could either accept him as transgender or try to configure his MacOS so that it looks and behaves like Windows. Or maybe it is a fantasy, a Windows that thinks it is a MacOS. Future research will hopefully give some answers to these questions.
Or you could have someone whose brain runs something else entirely, like Linux or FreeBSD.

(Referring to non-binary people here, of course.)
Meanwhile, at the Secret Council of the Forum TinyE the Wizard is trying to convince Breja the Half Elf (the other half remains unidentified) and the others that The Thread has to be derailed to save the land of the Forum. It must be taken deep into Off-Topic, and thrown back into the depths of the Internet. Only there, among Spider-Man memes and lolcats, can it be unmade.
Post edited May 23, 2016 by Breja
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dtgreene: That link leads to a login page for me.
Then alternatively you can download it from

https://mega.nz/#!XBAEHBDR!eT3S2v5MuYD2KVIbmxj-R6ck7TBVbdGbTisfFjawxIM
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Shadowstalker16: How exactly is a child transgender? I've seen this coming up again and again. How does one ascertain that a child who doesn't have properly regulated hormones like an adult has is transgender? And what exactly is the permanence to being transgender? It can be a hormone imbalance that settles in a few weeks or the result of prenatal hormonal imbalance and hence, more permanent. Saying children can be trans is wrong, because subsequent hormonal changes in teen age or later may fix it.
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dtgreene: Maybe because the child constantly insists that (if AMAB) she is a girl or (if AFAB) he is a boy?

Also, at that age, whether it is a phase or permanent isn't particularly important at that age, because there is nothing permanent that has to be done before puberty anyway.
What is amab and afab? Yes, but we can't take everything children say as truth, so we can't say a child is transgender more than a child can say he / she is something else.

Puberty or majority? Isn't majority age required to consent to SRAS?
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Narakir: How can something that is acquired by life experience and is fundamentally a social construction (gender) can be programmed from birth ?
Holy shit people. If gender was a social construct, how can people be born with the sex? And all it would take to ''transition'' from one gender to another would be social conditioning / therapy. Currently, we need hormones and removal of birth genitalia for that. And both of those aren't social constructs.

You might be referring to gender roles.
Post edited May 23, 2016 by Shadowstalker16
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dtgreene: Maybe because the child constantly insists that (if AMAB) she is a girl or (if AFAB) he is a boy?

Also, at that age, whether it is a phase or permanent isn't particularly important at that age, because there is nothing permanent that has to be done before puberty anyway.
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Shadowstalker16: What is amab and afab? Yes, but we can't take everything children say as truth, so we can't say a child is transgender more than a child can say he / she is something else.

Puberty or majority? Isn't majority age required to consent to SRAS?
AMAB = Assigned Male At Birth
AFAB = Assigned Female At Birth

Some people prefer to prefix these acronyms with a C, meaning "coercively", to reinforce the fact that the assignment is done without the newborn's consent.

Puberty is when you need to worry about getting hormone blockers to prevent the child from going through the incorrect puberty.

Also, what's this "SRAS" thing you are talking about?