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Maighstir: That is, during development and testing, the developer sets Windows to development mode, in order to not bother with having to trust certificates. When later publishing to the store, Microsoft signs it with their certificate instead. If the application is not published, but released solely inside an organisation, the machines probably already have your organisation's certificate installed and can be set to the middle setting to sideload applications with trusted certificates.
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timppu: Ok, so could e.g. Steam or GOG release one certificate that all the users need to install on their device, that covers all the games those non-Windows Store stores cover? Or would the customers have to install a new certificate for each game they buy from a non-Windows Store? How onerous task is it to "install a certificate" anyway, is it like one click or can it be automated (without having to use Windows Store), or does one need to go to the depths of Control Panel or whatever to enter a certificate there etc.?

Just trying to understand this at some level. It seems kinda complicated to how e.g. the Android world seems for an end-user: by default you can install stuff only through the Google Play store, but if you want to "sideload", you just flip one switch on the options of your device ("Allow 3rd party software blaa blaa blaa"), and then you can install applications from apk packages you've downloaded from the internets or the Humble Bundle store or whatever. The end user doesn't have to care about the defails, e.g. are those apk packages "signed with a certificate" and do they install a certificate for you and whatever. It all just works, magic!
Most commonly, the certificate is per developer/company, not per application. A person or group likely have a few certificates for different usage (say, for distribution inside or outside the group). I haven't messed around with it, but I assume certificate installation could be automated to some extent (ie. double-click an application). On the other hand, that install-certificate application would have to be a non-UWP application since you need the certificate to install and run UWP apps, and if you can run non-UWP apps, why would the games be packaged as UWP?. Additionally, I'm not certain that all Windows editions allow sideloading at all.
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Antimateria: I'm using win 7 and i haven't really seen why I should upgrade.
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Engerek01: I am using Linux and haven't really seen a reason to downgrade to Win10. :)

Writing that felt good even tho I occasionally (once a month) dual boot to Win7
Honestly Windows is just familiar and comfortable to people. The more I learn linux the more I like it
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immi101: why do you put audio files in an archive? using standard audio compression like mp3, opus, flac or whatever is way more efficient.

that being said, my audio player doesn't seem to support it. However browsing inside of the archive in the file manager and queue the audio file for playback does work.
Because they're exotic formats like SPC (packed as RSN), 2SF, and MiniUSF, that's why. And I don't want to unpack the 106 games worth of SNES music especially when each archive often holds upwards of 20 tracks each.

Those same files as MP3s would be gigabytes large rather than my collection being contained in a neat 333 MB.
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Revan67: I think there is a version of winrar for linux is there not? It covers pretty much any filetype you can think of
The archives aren't the issue; rather the issue is media players not opening them.
Post edited February 08, 2018 by Darvond
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immi101: why do you put audio files in an archive? using standard audio compression like mp3, opus, flac or whatever is way more efficient.

that being said, my audio player doesn't seem to support it. However browsing inside of the archive in the file manager and queue the audio file for playback does work.
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Darvond: Because they're exotic formats like SPC (packed as RSN), 2SF, and MiniUSF, that's why. And I don't want to unpack the 106 games worth of SNES music especially when each archive often holds upwards of 20 tracks each.
i see
if you use btrfs as filesystem, you could use its support for transparent file compression
just make a new directory, enable compression for it, then unpack your archives into it.
gives you the space savings and easy access.
though btrfs only supports zlib, so the result probably won't be as good as rar/lzma or similar

(and you have to work through all your 106 games to unpack them, but that might be easily scriptable)
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immi101: i see
if you use btrfs as filesystem, you could use its support for transparent file compression
just make a new directory, enable compression for it, then unpack your archives into it.
gives you the space savings and easy access.
though btrfs only supports zlib, so the result probably won't be as good as rar/lzma or similar

(and you have to work through all your 106 games to unpack them, but that might be easily scriptable)
I feel we're having a failure to communicate: The issue is not with the files, but the players not opening compressed archives natively. It's a feature in Foobar2K.
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Darvond: I feel we're having a failure to communicate: The issue is not with the files, but the players not opening compressed archives natively.
no, I got that. But as the saying goes: If the mountain does not come to the prophet, the prophet will have to go to the mountain ;)
if there is no player able to play files from compressed archives, then store the files from the archives individually instead , let the filesystem compress them individually and your player won't have to care about opening the compressed archive.

seems better than to loose the ability to play your music, no?
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Maighstir: On the other hand, that install-certificate application would have to be a non-UWP application since you need the certificate to install and run UWP apps, and if you can run non-UWP apps, why would the games be packaged as UWP?
Just a clarification: do you mean there is a way in Windows 10 to install and run modern (non-Win32) applications (without having to be packaged as "UWP" and hence needing a certificate), or just as a remark how complicated it would be to have store-wide certifications for customers, where the customer needs to install only once to have access to all store's games? E.g. one certification for all GOG games, another for all Steam games...?

To me it appears MS is more and more pushing Windows PCs to become iOS-like walled gardens, which almost makes me wish some kind of Android PCs would become the next real PCs... Or Linux, but unfortunately at this point none of the big players seem to really heavily pushing Linux to mainstream gamers (even for Valve it seems to be a plan B at best, mostly to put some fire under Microsoft's ass), and I fear that if it is Valve with SteamOS, it is the same story all over again as naturally Valve would be primarily pushing SteamOS with the idea that you buy your games on it from Steam, not competing stores. Not really better in my eyes as Microsoft pushing Windows Store on Windows 10, or GOG would come up with GOGOS where you can buy and play games primarily through Galaxy.

The reason I "believe" in Android is because Humble Bundle/Store has already proven that you can compete with the GooglePlay store directly within Android, even if GooglePlay is the default place where Android users get their software. I don't think there are different kinds of Android devices where this ("sideloading") wouldn't be possible, and you don't have to go through some extraordinary hoops in order to install non-GooglaPlay software, other than enabling it in the Android options.

I miss the times when the company providing the OS wasn't trying to act as an application store as well...
Post edited February 09, 2018 by timppu
So. This thread apparently started three years ago. Is Windows 10 still a threat?
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Antimateria: I'm using win 7 and i haven't really seen why I should upgrade.
Same, about the only thing I want on Win10 is that Age of Empires remake, hopefully some fans make a patch so it works on Win7.
Time for a bump again?

So apparently MS is now working to add native mod support on Xbox, allowing any dev to add mod support into their games. You may recall one of the biggest concerns about UWP was the death of modding. It is likely, given Microsoft's push to unify Windows 10 and Xbox gaming, that any type of system like this would also be supported on Windows 10 and thereby bringing mods to UWP apps (I honestly think paid custom content in Minecraft was testing this, but I can't say for sure). It's not a open as we have now or as open as we may like it to be, but it would go a long way in allowing custom content for both free and paid. This may allow for more adoption of UWP among gamers.

https://venturebeat.com/2018/06/28/xbox-one-is-reportedly-getting-a-steam-workshop-like-take-on-mods/

There are also speculation out there that Microsoft will force developers to move to UWP from XDK (Xbox Development Kit), possibly with the next Xbox (apparently codenamed Scarlett which was confirmed at E3, apparently releasing in 2020). In the Fall Creators Update Microsoft allowed UWP apps to take full advantage of the Xbox resources. Bringing the UWP performance on par with XDK.

https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2017/09/15/resources-universal-windows-platform-games-fall-xbox-one-update/

This will allow for greater backwards compatibly with future Xbox's and the ability to create a PC version with minimal additional work (once you create the Xbox version, 90% to 95% of your work is done). As a developer that has huge advantages, because you can save a lot of time and money.

I suspect that when the next Xbox drops, the PC as we know it will take a dramatic shift. During that time Windows 7 extended support will be ending or already have ended. This means most people will have to shift, and I don't see enough people going to Linux or Mac so I would bet Windows 10 will be the dominate OS still.

Once the Windows 10 userbase becomes large enough, we could see developers move to Windows Store over Steam or GOG because it's vastly easier to release a UWP version there using the same version created for the Xbox. Right now they can't do that because the Windows 7 userbase it still quite large, making a Win32 version still necessary. This will slowly change over the next few years, and get far quicker when Windows 7 support ends. The vast majority of gamers will go with the AAA games are, that is a given.

What will be interesting is if GOG or Steam adopt UWP at the time to remain relevant (assuming devs still bring their games over to these services) and if by doing that would it be enough given that it appears UWP or not, if running Windows 10 S your apps have to be signed by the store.

One thing is for sure, the next few years are going to get really interesting... and it will be really interesting to see what moves Valve makes. They have stated that they have not given up on SteamOS and have Linux related projects in the works.
Post edited July 04, 2018 by user deleted
I've been trying to get my Mechcommander 2 to work on windows 10... it doesn't and its a pain in the ass. So is windows 10 a threat to gog or steam? No but its a pain in the rear end for sure!
Just to counter a few things

1) UWP has a boat load of issues right now and unless MS is paying someone a boat load of money there's little benefit to making a UWP app.

2) The 'we are adding modding support' really belies the core issue with UWP. It has no middleware platform.

3) The funny part is no AAA games could ever be on UWP. Why? Just look at the landscape

EA - Origin client
Activision/Blizzard - Battle.net
Rockstar - Rockstar Social
Ubisoft - Uplay
Everyone else - Steam

Basically every major publisher now has their own client. Forget about steam. Now every major publisher is going to say "wtf all this work we put in is going straight into the toilet? I dont think so"
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satoru: 1) UWP has a boat load of issues right now and unless MS is paying someone a boat load of money there's little benefit to making a UWP app.
I'm curious as to what specific issues you are referring too. It's no secret that UWP is far more restricted than Win32, but MS has improved it significantly with each major Windows 10 update. It's getting to be on par with Win32 (as far as API's and such) in each update. It's also less about now and more about 2 years from now when UWP becomes the focus of the next Xbox.

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satoru: 3) The funny part is no AAA games could ever be on UWP. Why? Just look at the landscape

EA - Origin client
Activision/Blizzard - Battle.net
Rockstar - Rockstar Social
Ubisoft - Uplay
Everyone else - Steam

Basically every major publisher now has their own client. Forget about steam. Now every major publisher is going to say "wtf all this work we put in is going straight into the toilet? I dont think so"
Outside of EA and Blizzard, the majority Rockstar / Ubisoft sales still come from Steam. Yes they have invested a lot of time and resources into their platforms, but they can also save a lot of time and money by not having to build a win32 application instead using the UWP version created for the next Xbox with minimal work. If S "mode" becomes standard, they may not have much of a choice in the matter.

And a few AAA games have already come to UWP (outside of MS) and more are coming. There has also been reports (may not be true though) that EA and Activision are working with UWP.
Post edited July 04, 2018 by user deleted
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satoru: Basically every major publisher now has their own client. Forget about steam. Now every major publisher is going to say "wtf all this work we put in is going straight into the toilet? I dont think so"
That's one thing, but then those same AAA publishers are also selling their games on consoles where they don't have their own storefront or service, I believe.

Or alternatively, if it really is possible to sell (and install) UWP apps outside of the Windows Store, then they will sell UWP games through their own store clients.

Anyway I hope there will be PC alternatives to MS making PC gaming a walled garden. Their former actions have certainly pointed to that, but apparently they have been surprised by the resistance, like Windows RT failing, or people avoiding Windows 10 S laptops, hence enabling 10 S to be upgraded to full Windows 10), so they try softer approaches.

It is a good wake-up call also to Valve, and Steam users, but to me seeing Valve being the counterforce is a bit like Stalin "liberating" us from Hitler, so to speak.

Also I've been thinking how Sony would react to that, would they try to co-operate with someone to counter this unholy alliance of XBox and Windows 10, with e.g. Valve (SteamOS)? Then again maybe it is a cultural thing, Sony seems to have become more and more like Nintendo, secluding themselves from the others, putting hands over their ears and chanting "everything is fine, everything is fine...". Like how they don't want multiplayer crossplay with other platforms, trying to "protect" PS4 from competition.
Post edited July 04, 2018 by timppu
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BKGaming: You may recall one of the biggest concerns about UWP was the death of modding. It is likely, given Microsoft's push to unify Windows 10 and Xbox gaming, that any type of system like this would also be supported on Windows 10 and thereby bringing mods to UWP apps (I honestly think paid custom content in Minecraft was testing this, but I can't say for sure). It's not a open as we have now or as open as we may like it to be, but it would go a long way in allowing custom content for both free and paid. This may allow for more adoption of UWP among gamers.

https://venturebeat.com/2018/06/28/xbox-one-is-reportedly-getting-a-steam-workshop-like-take-on-mods/
When people talk about modding with PC games, I think (and hope) it includes the idea that one can do it even without the publishers' consent, even to old ("abandoned") games. Like, GMDX mod for the original Deus Ex, or how various older Bethesda games have been overhauled (Morrowind, Oblivion... is someone still making that new engine for Daggerfall, was it called DaggerXL or somesuch?).

These Steamworks-kind systems of "hey you can make new weapons and hats and other additional content through this central service!" is more akin to games having e.g. level editors. Sure it allows you to make extra content for the game, but modding in PC gaming terms is much more than just that. It is e.g. creating a full new game engine for some old game, replacing the original one, of making a DSfix for Dark Souls, enabling technical features that were not possible in the original game.
Post edited July 04, 2018 by timppu