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shmerl: anything that artificially takes away control from the user after purchasing.
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JMich: The parent that pulls the plug on the child's NES! You heard it here first folks, parents are DRM!

Edit: What about cutscenes? The user isn't in control during a cutscene, while they should be. So are non-interactive cutscenes DRM as well?

Edit 2: There used to be a lovely "Keyboard Lock" option on older computer chassis. Locking the keyboard meant the user couldn't use it, so they couldn't control their machine. Was "Keyboard Lock" DRM as well?
You didn't pay attention. That definition says artificial reasons, i.e. not ones caused by the nature of things. For instance you can't run program built for one arch on another. That's a natural limitation. Yes, it restricts you, but it's not DRM. Get the difference?
Post edited November 04, 2015 by shmerl
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shmerl: You didn't pay attention. That definition says artificial reasons, i.e. not ones caused by the nature of things. For instance you can't run program built for one arch on another. That's a natural limitation. Yes, it restricts you, but it's not DRM. Get the difference?
And a parent preventing a child is a natural limitation? The child is perfectly capable of controlling the software, but the parent prevents it. What's natural about that?
Also, how is the "Keyboard Lock" a natural limitation? Assume the key is not owned by the user, but by someone else (Company's IT, Parent, shop forgot to unlock it).

I did pay attention. By artificial reason, I assume anything that isn't directly on the user. A stroke that prevents you from moving your hands wouldn't be an artificial reason that prevents you, but a person sitting over your shoulder and preventing your arm from using the mouse would be (see? Anyone can be DRM).

P.S. Also, you said anything after "purchase", not "delivery". A traffic accident that prevents the delivery truck from reaching your home is also an artificial reason that takes away your control of the item bought.

P.P.S. You'll be happy to know that Windows 8 and Windows 10 don't have anything that takes away your control. You are free to do whatever you like with them, though your local laws may disagree. Thus the law would be the DRM, not Windows.
All of your examples can be DRM, or can be security measures.

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JMich: You'll be happy to know that Windows 8 and Windows 10 don't have anything that takes away your control. You are free to do whatever you like with them, though your local laws may disagree. Thus the law would be the DRM, not Windows.
Not true. This didn't change a bit: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/drm_in_windows_1.html
1) Windows 10 does not have DRM for itself. You can run it without ever authenticate indefinitely.
2) Windows 10 on its own does not support DVD or Blu-Ray playback, DRM'd or not. You'll need to supply your own decoder. Similar case for SACD. I find similar reports for HDCP, Windows 10 on its own seems to have trouble.
3) It appears that even back then, the drivers would be those taking the burden. So it boils down to whether you consider the drivers part of Windows or not.

P.S. What is the difference between DRM and security measures? Is requiring to authenticate before delivery of your purchased items DRM or security measure?
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JMich: So the definition is changed to fit the crime. Ok...

IF there was a formal definition of DRM, intent would be irrelevant. So the copy of F.E.A.R. that GOG sells, which installs (or installed, haven't checked lately) Securom files and registry entries would be installing DRM (the aforementioned Securom). If on the other hand there is no formal definition of DRM, intent is what matters, so the aforementioned entries would not count as DRM, because they exist for a benign reason (for the user to be able to play without someone or something posing a problem).

So no, definition is, by definition, something specific, even if it can change with time. Definition is not something that can be formalized, it's something that is formalized.

P.S. Are you aware of an OS that anyone can download and install, and use with no restrictions, but if they bother to license it they get a few extra things? Care to guess what OS that is?
Good for you, and your company.

Common knowledge and legal knowledge are two very different things. Once a license (retail for example) has been sold, it cannot be revoked. Yet you claim that by upgrading, said license is revoked. Do ask a lawyer, preferably one of those computer grabbing ones you mentioned below.

Yes. Thus why Win10 upgrade is not available for Enterprise or Volume License users.

Get me in contact with one of them, and I will take your bet. My computer against yours.
https://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/44179f86-f8a6-4dc2-8692-b1637e72280b/windows-license-types-explained?forum=genuinewindows7

Done. Your PC please.

I'm tired arguing with idiot. Never would have thought there's a bloody moron trying to argue with me when he's full of ignorance.

End of contact. Your PC or GTFO.

Retail licenses may be either Upgrade licenses or Full Rights licenses. Microsoft uses "upgrade" to mean both an installation methodology and a licensing right. Don't confuse the two meanings. As a licensing right "upgrade" means that the customer is given credit (residual value) for the old Windows license because it is being superseded by the new upgrade license. Upgrade licenses are sold at a reduced price compared to the Full Rights license for this reason. However, the user must own a previous Windows license qualifying for the upgrade in order to take advantage of the reduced price. Further, the user may not re-use the old, superseded license.

AND WIN 10 UPGRADE IS FOR COMPANY WITH ENTERPRISE OR VLK, AS LONG AS IT'S WRITTEN IN OLP AGREEMENT. DO YOU EVEN KNOW THAT THING BEFORE SPOUTING NONSENSE?
Post edited November 05, 2015 by zeroxxx
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Martek: Simply taking the casual opinion of a GOG forum poster that Win 10 can or cannot or is limited to an app store (or not) isn't the best idea (if it's important to you).
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JMich: Yes, much better to read an article that doesn't even link the EULA, or quote it. Take a look or [url=http://www.alphr.com/microsoft/microsoft-windows-10/1001360/microsoft-can-disable-your-pirated-games-and-illegal-hardware]here for a bit more informed article, that at least links to the EULA mentioned. Which btw is not the Windows EULA, but the Microsoft Services one.
Cool, thanks for the better links. Will keep them in mind.

The article I linked and both of those you linked share a common theme - that, although the "worrisome" EULA is for "Services", they are heavily tied into Windows 10.

Article I linked:

The terms are also applicable to software using a Microsoft account, which would mean that it would also have an effect on most Windows 10 users.
Articles you linked (emphasis mine):

The latest mess all started with reports saying Microsoft’s end user licensing agreement for Windows 10 had changed, allowing the company to scan your PC and prevent you from playing a ripped version of Far Cry 4:

"Sometimes you’ll need software updates to keep using the Services. We may automatically check your version of the software and download software updates or configuration changes, including those that prevent you from accessing the Services, playing counterfeit games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices."

That sounds pretty invasive, but perhaps not entirely unbelievable given Windows 10’s cloud integration. The only problem is the EULA the reports point to is called the Microsoft Services Agreement, which is not the Windows 10 EULA. Instead, it’s for Microsoft’s various online and cross-device services—many of which run on Windows 10—such as Cortana, Groove, Office 365 Home, Skype, Xbox Live, and Xbox and Windows games published by Microsoft.

The list of services covered by the agreement doesn't explicitly include Windows 10. However, it does include your Microsoft account, which is an extensive part of the Windows 10 experience, as well as core features like Cortana – and that implies Redmond can disable any games you’ve pirated or devices you’ve "unlawfully" hacked. Enable Cortana (which pretty much everyone using Windows 10 is going to do) and you're subject to the services agreement

.. because Microsoft has simply taken an existing services agreement and applied it to core Windows 10 services such as Cortana means that, intentionally or accidentally, it could be applied to Windows 10.
One of 'your' articles states:

.. there are many real privacy concerns with Windows 10 where Microsoft really is grabbing data from your PC. But often this data is anonymized ..
Key word: OFTEN. It only takes ONE TIME leaking "not anonymized" data to get it into the "permanent" cloud. So "OFTEN" simply does not cut it - it only takes ONCE to foil OFTEN.

Other areas of concern in the EULA:

* You must accept updates whether you want them or not (and whether you know what they do, or not), and with no additional notification.

* If you agree to the EULA, you ALSO agree to the Services Agreement (so it isn't really a separate thing), and the Privacy Statement (which has multiple worrisome clauses)

* Privacy: You agree that MS may collect your data (as described in that Privacy Statement). The "weasel word" "Many" is used here: "Many of these features can be switched off in the user interface, or you can choose not to use them.". The opposite of "many" is "some", as in "some things cannot be switched off, and some things you cannot chose to not use".

As I already said - if these are important things to you - then there's a lot to carefully consider. If they are not that important to you - then it's easy to say "don't worry about it.."

My advice holds - that a person should read through things themselves and form their own conclusion. Thanks for backing that up :)
If anything, Institutions/Governments/Companies wouldn't be using Microsoft products if it's all as described here - invading privacy killing your firstborn stealing your wife yadda yadda.

God, some people.
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JMich: So the definition is changed to fit the crime. Ok...

IF there was a formal definition of DRM, intent would be irrelevant. So the copy of F.E.A.R. that GOG sells, which installs (or installed, haven't checked lately) Securom files and registry entries would be installing DRM (the aforementioned Securom). If on the other hand there is no formal definition of DRM, intent is what matters, so the aforementioned entries would not count as DRM, because they exist for a benign reason (for the user to be able to play without someone or something posing a problem).

So no, definition is, by definition, something specific, even if it can change with time. Definition is not something that can be formalized, it's something that is formalized.

P.S. Are you aware of an OS that anyone can download and install, and use with no restrictions, but if they bother to license it they get a few extra things? Care to guess what OS that is?
Good for you, and your company.

Common knowledge and legal knowledge are two very different things. Once a license (retail for example) has been sold, it cannot be revoked. Yet you claim that by upgrading, said license is revoked. Do ask a lawyer, preferably one of those computer grabbing ones you mentioned below.

Yes. Thus why Win10 upgrade is not available for Enterprise or Volume License users.

Get me in contact with one of them, and I will take your bet. My computer against yours.
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zeroxxx: https://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/44179f86-f8a6-4dc2-8692-b1637e72280b/windows-license-types-explained?forum=genuinewindows7

Done. Your PC please.

I'm tired arguing with idiot. Never would have thought there's a bloody moron trying to argue with me when he's full of ignorance.

End of contact. Your PC or GTFO.

Retail licenses may be either Upgrade licenses or Full Rights licenses. Microsoft uses "upgrade" to mean both an installation methodology and a licensing right. Don't confuse the two meanings. As a licensing right "upgrade" means that the customer is given credit (residual value) for the old Windows license because it is being superseded by the new upgrade license. Upgrade licenses are sold at a reduced price compared to the Full Rights license for this reason. However, the user must own a previous Windows license qualifying for the upgrade in order to take advantage of the reduced price. Further, the user may not re-use the old, superseded license.

AND WIN 10 UPGRADE IS FOR COMPANY WITH ENTERPRISE OR VLK, AS LONG AS IT'S WRITTEN IN OLP AGREEMENT. DO YOU EVEN KNOW THAT THING BEFORE SPOUTING NONSENSE?
Where is the lawyer seizing?

The terms of a company will be invalid if it go against the law, no matter how much they want their own policies to be the law, it is not the law.

Like how in the past valve refunds policy got sued.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/valve-sued-by-australian-consumer-watchdog-over-st/1100-6421983/
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JMich: P.S. What is the difference between DRM and security measures? Is requiring to authenticate before delivery of your purchased items DRM or security measure?
Security measures increase security for the user (working for the user). DRM decreases it and it's a security threat (working against the user).

Authentication before delivery (i.e. like accessing GOG) is part of purchasing. It shouldn't be needed once you acquired your copy (that's what I meant above).
Post edited November 05, 2015 by shmerl
Thank you. A forum post by a retired member, stickied by an Aditi employee is of course contact with an MS lawyer. You may come and collect my PC at your leisure.

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zeroxxx: AND WIN 10 UPGRADE IS FOR COMPANY WITH ENTERPRISE OR VLK, AS LONG AS IT'S WRITTEN IN OLP AGREEMENT. DO YOU EVEN KNOW THAT THING BEFORE SPOUTING NONSENSE?
Of course you can upgrade to the next version if your contract covers it. I was talking specifically about the "Upgrade to Windows 10" option in the Windows update. You know, as covered here, which does say "outside this offer".

Still, thank you.

P.S. So the Win10 license I got from my OEM SLP license is a retail one, not an OEM one?
P.P.S. So when someone bought the $39.99 Win8 license, which required a previous one, he had to stop using the previous one? Then why was MS telling them they can upgrade later? Were they telling them they can use a license they no longer have?

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shmerl: Security measures increase security for the use (working for the user). DRM decreases it and it's a security threat (working against the user).
So the Security guard that prevents you from entering your home until you authenticate yourself is a security measure, while the security software that prevents you from running your software before authenticating is not. Gotcha.
Post edited November 05, 2015 by JMich
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JMich: So the Security guard that prevents you from entering your home until you authenticate yourself is a security measure, while the security software that prevents you from running your software before authenticating is not. Gotcha.
You mix up unrelated concepts (though they are easy to mix up if you don't pay attention). Security guard for you home or password for your computer, or your firewall in your system - that's a security measure. A hidden camera in your house that spies on you, or DRM in your system - that's a security threat.
Post edited November 05, 2015 by shmerl
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shmerl: You mix up unrelated concepts (though they are easy to mix up if you don't pay attention). Security guard for you home or password for your computer, or your firewall in your system - that's a security measure. A hidden camera in your house that spies on you, or DRM in your system - that's a security threat.
Why hidden? I never said anything about hidden? I said a visible person that asks for authentication and a visible software that asks for authentication. Is the code for the copy machine a DRM or a security measure, since it's there to prevent unauthorized people from making copies, no matter how many people use that machine, or where that machine is?
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JMich: Why hidden? I never said anything about hidden?
Hidden was just an example (i.e. hidden can be compared to unobtrusive DRM). It can as well be not hidden (which can be compared to obtrusive DRM).

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JMich: I said a visible person that asks for authentication and a visible software that asks for authentication
And I already brought you a comparison with system password. It's a security measure (for your system). DRM is the opposite - it's something that compromises your system, because it's not for security at all, but for policing you.
Post edited November 05, 2015 by shmerl
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JMich: Why hidden? I never said anything about hidden? I said a visible person that asks for authentication and a visible software that asks for authentication. Is the code for the copy machine a DRM or a security measure, since it's there to prevent unauthorized people from making copies, no matter how many people use that machine, or where that machine is?
I think it's easy to differentiate in most cases: if it's meant to make something more secure (for example: prevent someone from killing others or stealing personal information) it's a security measure. If it's meant to disallow particular uses of something due to fear of lost income or extra expenses, that's "DRM". So the code for the copy machine is DRM and not a security measure.
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zeroxxx: Done. Your PC please.
Contacted MS support. Feel free to come by and pick up the PC anytime you want. Thank you for teaching me something new.
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