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General discussionIs GOG getting lapse on it's DRM-Free Policy?(77 posts)(77 posts)
(77 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 06, 2019
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GameRager: ...
I agree, but in this case the game in question was not looking for personal info to send to the developers. It was just trying to dial out in general.
Yes, it is true, but...

… I do not want spare time with finding out why it wants connect somewhere out.

A secondly from my point of view (which can be of course difference for other people) I do not see any reason why single player needs looking on internet.
Posted August 06, 2019
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GameRager: ...
I agree, but in this case the game in question was not looking for personal info to send to the developers. It was just trying to dial out in general.
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IXOXI: Yes, it is true, but...

… I do not want spare time with finding out why it wants connect somewhere out.

A secondly from my point of view (which can be of course difference for other people) I do not see any reason why single player needs looking on internet.
GOG games dont need internet to be played in singleplayer...
Posted August 07, 2019
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AB2012: Most people who buy DRM-Free games specifically for offline use care about outcomes rather than linguistical nitpicking. Eg, a DRM-Free game by definition should work 100% offline. That's the expectation of buyers on DRM-Free stores that present and market games as such and in fact is their entire point of DRM-Free existing. If a game refuses to start if it can't "phone home", then "it's not DRM because the server is a Telemetry one and not an authentication one" rings incredibly hollow when it acts and fails to start for exactly the same reason - the game won't give you "permission" to play it unless you jump through hoops involving some compulsory "check-in" with an online server you don't want or need (the exact functional definition of modern DRM). Personally I'd rather see such issues fixed than ignored on the back of "distraction arguing" or "anti complainer complaining" that always ends up one-level removed from the core issue at hand (and never actually helps anyone with offline functionality issues...)
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If a single-player offline game needs to be let through a firewall to chatter away on the net or refuses to start, then it doesn't "fix" the problem. You're simply ignoring it, lowering your own personal standards of how offline games should behave on a DRM-Free store and demanding others join in or you'll label them "irrational". Again, that's not a solution focussed mindset that actually solves the issue, helps others experiencing it, helps future game developers avoid having similar reoccurring issues or helps GOG avoid future support calls in needing to talk non-tech savvy people through adding manual firewall exceptions.
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^ You're getting distracted. It simply does not matter what anti-malware, etc, stuff he runs, what his backup strategy is. He does not need to defend or justify anything in order for his original complaint to remain valid. The bottom line is if it's sold for offline use it should work 100% offline and not even "touch" a firewall. Period. Again, I'd simply like this fixed for everyone. But the first step in fixing any problem is not ignoring it, talking around it or "shooting the messenger".
You call it nitpicking, I call it being accurate.

If something is similar to something else it may not be that thing but just very similar in form/function....i.e. something may do what drm does but not be drm.

I agree such nitpicking doesn't solve the issue, however....
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It does fix the problem of not being able to play if the game works....also sometimes one must lower their standards...that is part of life and called compromise. ;)

Also yes...to me not playing a game that one bought just because it has a bug that functions similar to drm is a bit irrational. This is not me trying to be overly mean but just calling stuff like I see it.

As for fixing the underlying issue causing the problems....well unless one is a coder all one can do is offer solutions they know how to do with what knowledge/skills they have at hand.

(And one does not need to be "tech savvy" to add a firewall exception...it can be easily googled/etc)
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That stuff was just a bit of offtopic...and no he and no one has to justify stuff they do or stance they hold, but one can criticize other's actions. God, I dislike in general this modern trend of "don't berate or criticize people because it's bad to do so"...as if criticism is always bad and shouldn't be done ever. :\

I get it, fixing the problem needs actual solutions....as some including me offered some to act as temp fixes until actual devs/etc can solve the problem. That is not, as you say, just "shooting the messenger" so I would appreciate you/others not painting everyone being critical of OP as bad/in the wrong for doing so.

(In general I noticed this a lot on GOG and elsewhere.....anyone who gives praise to the OPs of threads and advice while being positive will get praised, while those who give advice while being critical of OP or just offering even valid criticism will all be called bad/wrong for doing so.....to me it's a bit sickening, tbh.)

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GameRager: ...
I agree, but in this case the game in question was not looking for personal info to send to the developers. It was just trying to dial out in general.
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IXOXI: Yes, it is true, but...

… I do not want spare time with finding out why it wants connect somewhere out.

A secondly from my point of view (which can be of course difference for other people) I do not see any reason why single player needs looking on internet.
Agreed....I was just stating it to show it's not likely being done by the devs/etc for bad reasons.
Post edited August 07, 2019 by GameRager
Posted August 07, 2019
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GameRager: sometimes one must lower their standards...that is part of life and called compromise. ;)
Also a good part of why things are going down the toilet.
Posted August 07, 2019
I think that even Enter the Gungeon didn't work if I blocked it (or some program linked to it) from connecting to internet.
I had to disable telemetry on its Unity page and then edit this file and set it to read-only:

C:\Users\[username]\AppData\LocalLow\Dodge Roll\Enter the Gungeon\Unity\[ad code]\Analytics\config

{"prefs":{},"analytics":{"enabled":false},"connect":{"limit_user_tracking":true,"player_opted_out":true,
"enabled":false},"performance":{"enabled":false}}
Post edited August 07, 2019 by phaolo
Posted August 07, 2019
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GameRager: You call it nitpicking, I call it being accurate.
It is nitpicking. When people say "DRM-Free" they really mean "I want this game to run 100% offline". That's the bottom line intention for buying "DRM-Free" whilst DRM-Free stores are the solution that fulfils that. As a technology DRM means "DRM" but as a marketing label DRM-Free is a specific purchasing guideline that people use as some guarantee that a single-player game will run offline, and of course that overlaps with other stuff that forces a game to run online. That's why DRM-Free GOG games don't come loaded with 'not-DRM' server-side anti-cheat technology. It's why no-one cares about lack of DRM-Free Fortnite or PUBG (when it isn't just DRM-ness that determines offline-ability). And it's why GOG offline installers are made to handle lack of Galaxy with integrated 'not-DRM' cloud saves instead of crashing and GOG support responding with "But dat's not DRM, disable your firewall, go online anyway and lower your standards as part of life dude, lolz..."

When it comes to, eg, borked implementations of Unity Engine Telemetry, most people affected simply do not and will not care about semantic arguments over what is "technically" DRM or not, nor care about the why's of the intention of the developers (deliberate vs incompetence vs unawareness), they will just see GOG installers as becoming less reliable and the DRM-Free label then ends up devalued for everyone as it'll no longer be accurate as being interchangeable with "100% offline after your first download" which is exactly how many people use the term in the real world as a purchasing guide. "Lower your standards as part of life" is simply another phrase for 'dumbing down'. You have Steam and your cracked / pirated installers for that. Beyond that, I'm past "arguing for the sake of arguing" when the real DRM-Free issue for most people is "does it run offline out of the box and hassle free" not "can we nitpick over the label in the forums and constantly drive every such discussion off-topic..."
Post edited August 07, 2019 by AB2012
Posted August 07, 2019
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GameRager: (In general I noticed this a lot on GOG and elsewhere.....anyone who gives praise to the OPs of threads and advice while being positive will get praised, while those who give advice while being critical of OP or just offering even valid criticism will all be called bad/wrong for doing so.....to me it's a bit sickening, tbh.)
Food for thought: being critical of a poster is one thing. Being critical of a poster and then making excuses for anticonsumer practices that affect that poster (as well as everyone else) is worse. Have you ever heard the expression "death by a thousand paper cuts?" Or the old metaphor of the frog sitting in a pot not realizing it is being slowly boiled? Because both illustrate how consumer control erodes. Gradually. Because of apologists making excuses for this bad behavior instead of making sure it is nipped in the bud.

AB2012 put it very clearly about how the expectation with DRM-free is to run 100% offline. But let me go one further since I think there is some interesting (il)logical gymnastics going on here. You have alluded elsewhere to having workarounds that "make" games DRM-free. By your "logic", these games are therefore "sold DRM-free" from the getgo, since all the user needs to do is go online to find and apply the workaround. Clearly, though the games are not sold DRM-free (stores often even list what DRM is being used). Same difference here.
Posted August 08, 2019
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GameRager: sometimes one must lower their standards...that is part of life and called compromise. ;)
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Cavalary: Also a good part of why things are going down the toilet.
So having unrealistic expectations in life and being deluded about things would make life better for all?

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GameRager: You call it nitpicking, I call it being accurate.
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AB2012: It is nitpicking. When people say "DRM-Free" they really mean "I want this game to run 100% offline". That's the bottom line intention for buying "DRM-Free" whilst DRM-Free stores are the solution that fulfils that. As a technology DRM means "DRM" but as a marketing label DRM-Free is a specific purchasing guideline that people use as some guarantee that a single-player game will run offline, and of course that overlaps with other stuff that forces a game to run online. That's why DRM-Free GOG games don't come loaded with 'not-DRM' server-side anti-cheat technology. It's why no-one cares about lack of DRM-Free Fortnite or PUBG (when it isn't just DRM-ness that determines offline-ability). And it's why GOG offline installers are made to handle lack of Galaxy with integrated 'not-DRM' cloud saves instead of crashing and GOG support responding with "But dat's not DRM, disable your firewall, go online anyway and lower your standards as part of life dude, lolz..."

When it comes to, eg, borked implementations of Unity Engine Telemetry, most people affected simply do not and will not care about semantic arguments over what is "technically" DRM or not, nor care about the why's of the intention of the developers (deliberate vs incompetence vs unawareness), they will just see GOG installers as becoming less reliable and the DRM-Free label then ends up devalued for everyone as it'll no longer be accurate as being interchangeable with "100% offline after your first download" which is exactly how many people use the term in the real world as a purchasing guide. "Lower your standards as part of life" is simply another phrase for 'dumbing down'. You have Steam and your cracked / pirated installers for that. Beyond that, I'm past "arguing for the sake of arguing" when the real DRM-Free issue for most people is "does it run offline out of the box and hassle free" not "can we nitpick over the label in the forums and constantly drive every such discussion off-topic..."
1. There is a big difference between selling drm free games and a few games having a glitch that causes them to phone home. To me this does not break gog's drm free promise if they did not know about it and/or are working with devs to find a fix.

In the meantime there is a temp solution that reclaims that "drm-free" label by blocking said dialing out, which to me is much better than standing on principle and not partaking at all because "OMG it's drm...can't play that any more".

(Also that subtle dig at my stance should not say to disable one's firewall if you're going for accuracy to my position)

2. It's not going offtopic if it relates to the topic at hand.
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GameRager: (In general I noticed this a lot on GOG and elsewhere.....anyone who gives praise to the OPs of threads and advice while being positive will get praised, while those who give advice while being critical of OP or just offering even valid criticism will all be called bad/wrong for doing so.....to me it's a bit sickening, tbh.)
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rjbuffchix: Food for thought: being critical of a poster is one thing. Being critical of a poster and then making excuses for anticonsumer practices that affect that poster (as well as everyone else) is worse. Have you ever heard the expression "death by a thousand paper cuts?" Or the old metaphor of the frog sitting in a pot not realizing it is being slowly boiled? Because both illustrate how consumer control erodes. Gradually. Because of apologists making excuses for this bad behavior instead of making sure it is nipped in the bud.

AB2012 put it very clearly about how the expectation with DRM-free is to run 100% offline. But let me go one further since I think there is some interesting (il)logical gymnastics going on here. You have alluded elsewhere to having workarounds that "make" games DRM-free. By your "logic", these games are therefore "sold DRM-free" from the getgo, since all the user needs to do is go online to find and apply the workaround. Clearly, though the games are not sold DRM-free (stores often even list what DRM is being used). Same difference here.
1. FWIW: People "make excuses" or justifications for almost anything....doing so is not inherently bad.

Also using the term anti-consumer here is a bit misleading....you make it look like someone is twiddling their mustaches while laughing at the poor gamers caught by this glitch. This is a glitch or bit of messed up code most likely and not genuine malice on the part of devs.

Also also it's not being an apologist to explain why something could be happening logically instead of jumping the gun and possibly labelling it as evil intent on the part of devs.

2. No, by my logic those games are not drm-free but I am ok with that and keep workaround on hand if the servers ever shut down(steam/etc).

You are not making a fair comparison here, imo, as the workarounds I have stored are not considerd entirely legit/legal usually while the ones to fix the issue here in this thread ARE. Also the ones listed here are caused by a glitch not intended drm like in steam/etc games....big difference.
Post edited August 08, 2019 by GameRager
Posted August 08, 2019
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GameRager: So having unrealistic expectations in life and being deluded about things would make life better for all?
Only unrealistic if people accept it as such.
But not arguing with you, it's pointless.
Posted August 08, 2019
low rated
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GameRager: So having unrealistic expectations in life and being deluded about things would make life better for all?
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Cavalary: Only unrealistic if people accept it as such.
But not arguing with you, it's pointless.
If a thing is objectively unrealistic then that's how it is.../.wishing and hoping for change and sometimes even trying for change won't change that or make such things suddenly realistic and totally possible each and every single time(and usually not many of those times)....this is how life is.

What's the old saying?

"Let me change what I can, realize and accept what i cannot, and be wise enough to tell the difference" or similar.

(Also why do you deem it pointless? What about not accepting it as such? I am truly asking this part btw)
Posted August 08, 2019
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LiefLayer: I am a Unity developer (but I only do it as a hobby right now).
This is the first time I hear about this issue.
The last bug I had to face was with google play (I have a really small brekout game there) that required a privacy policy even without ads/in-app and without the Unity Analytics package.
Anyhow, I tried to compile and launch the game I'm working on windows, in airplane mode (I also used the airplane mode to compile the game) ... It works.
So it shouldn't be a Unity3d problem ... at least not the current version and not with default plugins.
Of course I cannot try those games in unity (since I'm not the developer of those games) but at least I can ensure that unity allows drm-free.

Also by Unity's telemetry you actually mean Analytics that can be disabled (a unity developer can just remove the package). By the way I tried my current project with Analytics so the problem is not that.
Multiple people here still think is Unity's fault.
Like I already said it's not Unity

the answer is gog galaxy like Geralt_of_Rivia said:
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Geralt_of_Rivia: I know what the problem is. It's not Unity's telemetry that's to blame. I have never seen a game crash due to firewalled Unity telemetry.

The problem most likely is GOG Galaxy. Every game that has Galaxy features tries to connect to the Galaxy service on your computer to check if Galaxy is available. If the connect succeeds Galaxy features are enabled and all is well. If the connect is declined (in other words, the port is closed because the service isn't running or you don't even have Galaxy installed) Galaxy features are disabled and all is well..

But if the connection attempt get's blocked by a firewall and the game never receives an answer to its connection attempt, the game will crash. That is a very old bug that I have first seen and reported to GOG in 2015. It has been fixed by now but only quite recently. And GOG still has hundreds of installers with games that have not received an update since the fix and are still linked to the old buggy Galaxy dlls.

To get the game to run create a firewall rule that allows connects to localhost (127.0.0.1) but blocks any other connection attempts and assign the rule to the games. You'll see that they will work just fine then.
Posted August 08, 2019
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GameRager: (snip)
Going back +20 years to Win98 era, many firewalls have validly given a "silent response" instead of a binary yes / no precisely because it makes it a lot more difficult for port scanners / local malware to detect which ports are open to hacking / setting up unauthorized "back-channels". It's not a new thing or even a problem. Lazy people here like yourself who blame everything but the game for bad game code may want to do a little more research on the subject as fallback code to avoid crashing on a "no response" should still work correctly anyway for other reasons. Eg, a Telemetry server outage that results in silence / long timeout instead of a "server not found" error code, could crash such a badly coded game in the same way, and then your "workaround" (that you're yelling everyone is "deluded" for not accepting) wouldn't work at all vs actually doing the right thing, deal with the problem rather than keep projecting symptoms as the users fault and actually fix the bad code, solving a dozen other unforeseen future problems in the process.

Feel free to respond but I'm done with arguing for the sake of arguing, and am not interested in playing silly word games or responding to childish "you're all deluded / mentally ill except me" style insults every 5 minutes simply for not sharing your chronic laziness / dumbing down apologism. Have a good day.
Post edited August 08, 2019 by AB2012
Posted August 08, 2019
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LiefLayer: Multiple people here still think is Unity's fault. Like I already said it's not Unity
I think it's possible there are two or three separate issues having an overlapping effect. Eg, whilst Unity seems sort-of intelligent in that if it can't connect, it will attempt to store Telemetry in say C:\Users\Username\AppData\LocalLow\GameName\Unity\Analytics to re-attempt later, other times I have seen issues such as UnityCrashHandler.dll stall with high CPU usage due to a firewall, or if such a local folder is set to read-only / lacks NTFS write permission. That may well be specific to certain versions though.

For Galaxy, I haven't personally had any Galaxy.dll related hard crashes for offline installers (I'm not saying other people haven't), although I have seen much longer startup times for Galaxy integrated games (offline installers) if they're blocked from a firewall vs the same non-client integrated DRM-Free versions on other stores (eg, GOG vs Humble's Bioshock 1 classic). Personally I think GOG's Galaxy dev team could do a little more "firewall testing" or tighten up "fallback code" for the offline installers just as a precaution that could avoid having to deal with more support calls in future.

And by that I mean examples like this. Although a completely different issue, no-one foresaw games suddenly not starting because Microsoft disabled the Game Explorer server. And GOG customers who don't read the forums / know of the fix probably have GameUX integrated games that they don't know how to get to work and possibly flooded GOG's already overworked support team with tickets. Sometimes GOG's "over-integration" of stuff that wants to talk to online servers into offline installers perhaps isn't the best idea for game-preservation / longevity (or reducing GOG's support workload).
Post edited August 08, 2019 by AB2012
Posted August 08, 2019
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AB2012: Going back +20 years to Win98 era, many firewalls have validly given a "silent response" instead of a binary yes / no precisely because it makes it a lot more difficult for port scanners / local malware to detect which ports are open to hacking / setting up unauthorized "back-channels". It's not a new thing or even a problem. Lazy people here like yourself who blame everything but the game for bad game code may want to do a little more research on the subject as fallback code to avoid crashing on a "no response" should still work correctly anyway for other reasons. Eg, a Telemetry server outage that results in silence / long timeout instead of a "server not found" error code, could crash such a badly coded game in the same way, and then your "workaround" (that you're yelling everyone is "deluded" for not accepting) wouldn't work at all vs actually doing the right thing, deal with the problem rather than keep projecting symptoms as the users fault and actually fix the bad code, solving a dozen other unforeseen future problems in the process.

Feel free to respond but I'm done with arguing for the sake of arguing, and am not interested in playing silly word games or responding to childish "you're all deluded / mentally ill except me" style insults every 5 minutes simply for not sharing your chronic laziness / dumbing down apologism. Have a good day.
1st: I never "yelled" at anyone that they were deluded for not using the fix that was offered. I simply said it is better(to me, as I said) to do that and be able to play than to not if it fixes the issue for some/for now.

I also advocated that the dev/anyone responsible should fix the issue several times, and I find no fault if some choose not to use the temp fix.

2nd: Where did I say anyone was mentally ill or allude to such...or is this in general to all who responded similarly?

I myself just said such people were being a bit unreasonable from my pov....is that so wrong?

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Talk about people being childish: See, this is what i was talking about(either here or in another thread).....give an agreeing reply or kind words and everyone loves you, but say something against that or critical and people bite your head off. And with insults and namecalling, no less. Seriously, was that last bit about laziness/dumbing down and apologism really needed?
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Posted August 08, 2019
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AB2012: I think it's possible there are two or three separate issues having an overlapping effect. Eg, whilst Unity seems sort-of intelligent in that if it can't connect, it will attempt to store Telemetry in say C:\Users\Username\AppData\LocalLow\GameName\Unity\Analytics to re-attempt later, other times I have seen issues such as UnityCrashHandler.dll stall with high CPU usage due to a firewall, or if such a local folder is set to read-only / lacks NTFS write permission. That may well be specific to certain versions though.
Like I already said there is no issues with Analytics. I even tried to add my build game to the windows firewall to block all connections, the game still run without any problems.
The Unity Analytics folder is always there (even if I remove the package from the project) but it's not active.
Unity3d is not the problem (at least in the current version of the engine), if there are other problems that are not galaxy related I think is safe to say is something else (maybe just a 3rd party plugin ).
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionIs GOG getting lapse on it's DRM-Free Policy?(77 posts)(77 posts)
(77 posts)