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dtgreene: Problem: HP increases with level, which results in battles taking longer at higher levels.

Also, if strength increases with level (or if you have a level-less system where strength can increase on its own), shouldn't that influence damage, at least with heavy weapons?

(Note that, if I do make a game, the mechanics will be more like SaGa than D&D, and the two are not similar.)
Ah, but they are hitting more often. And they get to attack more often, and get skills that boost their attacks even further. So more attacks = more damage. With the same weapon, a high level warrior's damage output in D&D is exponentially higher than a low level warrior's.
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Sildring: Maybe it should be scaled based on the level difference between the character and the enemy ?

For example, a level 1 fighter will have a 90% chance of hitting a level 1 target but the accuracy will decrease by 5-10% for each level difference so the same character will only have a 70% chance against a level 3 monster.
I *really* don't like this mechanic.

It makes a single level matter *way* too much. Also, typical implementations don't scale to high levels; at some point in quadruple digit levels, a 1% difference will mean the difference between always hitting and always missing.

This sort of mechanic is much of the reason why Hoshigami was apparently such a poor game. It also was an issue in Arc the Lad 2, as you would normally end up below enemy levels and unable to hit without using skills (and, if the attacker is Diekbeck, who is always level 1, forget it).

Also, for this mechanic to work, there has to be a level stat in the first place, and that must apply to enemies as well as players.

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dtgreene: Problem: HP increases with level, which results in battles taking longer at higher levels.

Also, if strength increases with level (or if you have a level-less system where strength can increase on its own), shouldn't that influence damage, at least with heavy weapons?

(Note that, if I do make a game, the mechanics will be more like SaGa than D&D, and the two are not similar.)
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paladin181: Ah, but they are hitting more often. And they get to attack more often, and get skills that boost their attacks even further. So more attacks = more damage. With the same weapon, a high level warrior's damage output in D&D is exponentially higher than a low level warrior's.
It's not exponential.

If it were, there's no way the game would be even remotely balanced at both low and high levels.
Post edited December 14, 2020 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: It's not exponential.

If it were, there's no way the game would be even remotely balanced at both low and high levels.
Forgive my hyperbole. It is still multiplicative damage boosts overall.
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dtgreene: Problem: HP increases with level, which results in battles taking longer at higher levels.

Also, if strength increases with level (or if you have a level-less system where strength can increase on its own), shouldn't that influence damage, at least with heavy weapons?

(Note that, if I do make a game, the mechanics will be more like SaGa than D&D, and the two are not similar.)
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paladin181: Ah, but they are hitting more often. And they get to attack more often, and get skills that boost their attacks even further. So more attacks = more damage. With the same weapon, a high level warrior's damage output in D&D is exponentially higher than a low level warrior's.
especially as he can actually hit the target and not just miss miss miss + enchanted weapons are much better with their bonuses
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Sildring: Maybe it should be scaled based on the level difference between the character and the enemy ?

For example, a level 1 fighter will have a 90% chance of hitting a level 1 target but the accuracy will decrease by 5-10% for each level difference so the same character will only have a 70% chance against a level 3 monster.
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dtgreene: It makes a single level matter *way* too much. Also, typical implementations don't scale to high levels; at some point in quadruple digit levels, a 1% difference will mean the difference between always hitting and always missing.
thats the point of leveling up so you can feel much stronger your champ
Post edited December 14, 2020 by Orkhepaj
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dtgreene: It makes a single level matter *way* too much. Also, typical implementations don't scale to high levels; at some point in quadruple digit levels, a 1% difference will mean the difference between always hitting and always missing.
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Orkhepaj: thats the point of leveling up so you can feel much stronger your champ
The stat boosts from leveling up, and the occasional new ability, are enough of a benefit to leveling, especially when a lot of levels are gained.

A small number of levels shouldn't have a drastic effect, because it becomes a lot harder to balance the game.

One level should not mean the difference between impossible and trivial.

(I note that many Ys games have this issue. Case in point, if I do things a bit out of order in Oath in Felghana (exploring the mountains right after getting double jump, but before killing the boss deep within the haunted mines), then the next couple of bosses become laughably easy, until I reach the point that I couldn't pass before. This is even without those games behaving like RPGs when it comes to attack accuracy.)

Also, as I've mentioned, don't forget that not every RPG has level as a stat. Most do, but there are a few that do not.
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Sildring: Maybe it should be scaled based on the level difference between the character and the enemy ?

For example, a level 1 fighter will have a 90% chance of hitting a level 1 target but the accuracy will decrease by 5-10% for each level difference so the same character will only have a 70% chance against a level 3 monster.
That'd make fights against significantly higher level enemies impossible, so no room for such challenges or the feeling of achievement when beating them. And it'd also make swarms of low level enemies, which may also be minions of higher level ones and which could otherwise chip away at the PC(s), irrelevant.
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Sildring: Maybe it should be scaled based on the level difference between the character and the enemy ?

For example, a level 1 fighter will have a 90% chance of hitting a level 1 target but the accuracy will decrease by 5-10% for each level difference so the same character will only have a 70% chance against a level 3 monster.
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Cavalary: That'd make fights against significantly higher level enemies impossible, so no room for such challenges or the feeling of achievement when beating them. And it'd also make swarms of low level enemies, which may also be minions of higher level ones and which could otherwise chip away at the PC(s), irrelevant.
that entirely depends on the numbers
i like fewer levels but more significant ones like in dnd , but i dont like the dnd fight system
dodge and armor interlinked... so bad
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Orkhepaj: i like fewer levels but more significant ones like in dnd
I'm the reverse. I like RPGs where I am likely to see some character growth every playing session.
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Orkhepaj: i like fewer levels but more significant ones like in dnd
I don't. Development in sudden leaps, and then being stuck with it for a long while.
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Orkhepaj: i like fewer levels but more significant ones like in dnd
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dtgreene: I'm the reverse. I like RPGs where I am likely to see some character growth every playing session.
but that is like having no level at all , just get xp and spend xp to improve things

what is the worst is enemy strenght are linked to your level that is horrible system like in skyrim
it basically forces you to not level up or minmax leveling up ,just horrible
Post edited December 14, 2020 by Orkhepaj
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Orkhepaj: but that is like having no level at all , just get xp and spend xp to improve things
Much prefer that myself. Well, prefer training through use, so no limits and can practice as early and as much as you want. But spending exp directly for constant incremental improvement is next.
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Orkhepaj: what is the worst is enemy strenght are linked to your level that is horrible system like in skyrim
Oh, definitely, level scaling makes improvement pointless at best, if not even harmful. Wtf's the point of an RPG then?
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Orkhepaj: but that is like having no level at all , just get xp and spend xp to improve things
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Cavalary: Much prefer that myself. Well, prefer training through use, so no limits and can practice as early and as much as you want. But spending exp directly for constant incremental improvement is next.
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Orkhepaj: what is the worst is enemy strenght are linked to your level that is horrible system like in skyrim
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Cavalary: Oh, definitely, level scaling makes improvement pointless at best, if not even harmful. Wtf's the point of an RPG then?
and peasants started to wear glass armor ,high-end material should be very expensive and rare , that just ruins the atmosphere
and if you don't min-max you will just get relatively weaker when leveling up, total insanity:D
I also don't like when your battle skills share resources with your other roleplay/fun skills like cooking etc, and you have to choose eighter battle skills or those , resulting in battle skills as most games are balanced for that and 0 cooking, not good at all

i dont really like spend xp on what you want as that usually there instead of the class system , and i like classes
classes should be distinct giving different playstyles , wow is perfect example of good class design , they all fight differently
Post edited December 14, 2020 by Orkhepaj
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dtgreene: I'm the reverse. I like RPGs where I am likely to see some character growth every playing session.
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Orkhepaj: but that is like having no level at all , just get xp and spend xp to improve things
I don't mind that.

In fact, I don't think we need XP; there's so much design space in growth systems that I feel has not been tapped.
Attack accuracy in a RPG should be based on the stats.
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Orkhepaj: but that is like having no level at all , just get xp and spend xp to improve things
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dtgreene: I don't mind that.

In fact, I don't think we need XP; there's so much design space in growth systems that I feel has not been tapped.
like what?
there is skill advance as you use
you gather xp and spend it on skills
the ordinary lvl and spend your points system
eve online training where you are learning the selected skill constantly and very few things can change the speed of learning
is there any other?
oh yeah there is where the game spends the points for you when you level up , that one is bad
Post edited December 14, 2020 by Orkhepaj