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Sorry, i'm hitting space limits, so i'm going to have to cut your quotes small.

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Magmarock: It seems ...ambitious projects.
So, as you're about to say, big companies can't afford as many risks, but they also handle ambitious projects? Ambition is risk. There's, unfortunately, a fundemental conflict within your own logic. You're free to think whatever you will, but please ask yourself if you might have stake in this.
Lets take your Microsoft example....too big for it's own good.
The guy in question, and his team, were hired to make windows vista look like OSX. His biggest problem was that he couldn't get confirmation on what departmment was responsible for freeing what resources (allocated RAM). As such, every time a meeting took place, the decision would change. The guy has now gone down in history as "the guy who only wrote a few lines of code over the course of a whole year," which then highlighted the problems with measuring programmers by "lines of code." There were major communication issues within the company, because Microsoft was interested in making sure certain people had jobs (and these people were usually supervisors).
When open source, you're right there's ...things.
So, in other words, it's bad, because it's a free market of ideas? Let every idea flourish, because alot of people also have different needs. Someone like myself really likes LXDE, it fits my needs of using few system resources. Not very user friendly, though, but that's the trade-in. Meanwhile, Gnome2 was good for people who liked pretty interfaces, which was also good for kids because all the flashy composition compatibility also kept the attention of the children when viewing the screen. Then you have people like my girlfriend who absolutely love the whole Windows 8 interface, so gnome3 was right up her alley, because it was something she was used to having used her cellphone all the time (to be fair, she stuck with windows due to familiarity). Everyone has different needs, and thus these different products are GOOD. If you have 2 ideas that are very similar, people will debate, fight, and argue over the two and the winner will come out on top (VIM!).
When Bill gates ... it.
Android is linux mixed with closed source software. What's cool about it is, install the termux app and you get the linux shell back. It's amazing what you can pull off with it, too. If it wasn't for linux and distros being a thing, we wouldn't even have android. We'd have iOS, and MS sure as hell would still be just as far behind the ball as they've been so far.

It's kinda funny, though, despite all their opposition in the past, microsoft the past few years has been trying to buddy up with open source software: they just can't pay the devs enough and hire enough to deal with all the problems: open source is a great way to use the customer's need to get a product developed without having to pay anyone to do it, which is what fueled alot of development on windows: microsoft went out of their way to point out they allow us to develop programs for windows (i remember reading it in one of the EULAs).
With Linux you might ... anything serious.
People in general are only equipped to do small things, where open source gives more freedom, which is why MS is behind the ball. The "do something small and do it really well" actually came before the big push for open software. It's known as "the Unix philosophy," which was so great at making development happen, even in a closed source environment (since it understood humans and computers and how they interact), that most OSes (including OSX) are based on it. The OS itself is stable and sound, while the rest you see is everyone else doing their own thing, and the projects aren't really that old. The fact that volunteer work takes so much time, and the fact they've managed to get all this accomplished in itself is quite a feat when compared to your Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft, for example, is hanging on to really, really old code. I remember reading that, right now, they're having huge issues with 3rd party office modules: they are trying to develop a new way to replace legacy code, but it's so ingrained into the base, they're having trouble dislodging it. There weren't enough alternatives to keep them in line. They've even backed out of it, at one point, and it's a huge problem for mobile versions: the legacy code seems to be tied to x86 CPUs, thus they can't make it work for mobile platforms. This is going to be a big problem for them, moving forward, as more and more people want to use office tools during commute and show presentations on the go, which has been a thing everyone's been aiming for as long as I can remember. OpenOiffice/LibreOffice is much, much closer to this goal, but i have a feeling someone else will beat the both of them to it first (Google, most likely).
Once you start getting into bigger ... DRM imoh)
QEMU's emulation is slower, but i've found it to be far more reliable. When i was doing my own kernel development, I remember we (my friend [who was instructing me] and I) had to switch to qemu just to get the graphics driver to work like the real thing (because our code was working on real hardware, but not in vmware). Sure, there's speed bonuses, which is great if you're trying to run a specific OS since you need that OS (which you most likely wouldn't if the software was open source, thus someone could port it for you), but it's really bad if you need an accurate x86 emulator. Meanwhile, qemu seems to be the defacto standard emulator for people doing microcontroller development who aren't ready to invest in hardware.
Another examples ...3DSMAX in a heartbeat.
The comparison is much like windows vs linux. 3DSMAX is like photoshop, while Blender is like GIMP. The projects are more... Infantile?
Anther one I would like to personally ... Reflect
Depends, actually. I never used clonezilla, but usually anyone who's doing that kind of thing shouldn't be too afraid of the terminal, at which point the OS itself handles it quite well (all hardware is a device, so you can, for example, vim your USB drive and look at the raw data on it). I, personally, prefer ddrescue, and have used it in a pinch. It's based on dd, which is great if you aren't doing forensics. My guess of looking at screenshots, clonezilla is just a frontend for dd.
Has has thing thing called VSS which allows you to image your computer while it is in use. You can read more about it here. https://forum.macrium.com/Topic24066.aspx#24104
Most will, including linux. However, it's discouraged, and for good reason: if it's in use, changes can occur, which can ruin your backups. Imagine a file pointer that you have pointing to a certain block in memory, then you save a file and the OS doesn't write to the same block (which is common, which is what causes disk fragmentation, a huge problem that plagues NTFS). Now, you decide then to go watch a youtube video: it loads thumbnails. That previous block (which the backup is currently pointing to) is now occupied with data from those thumbnails. Now, if your backup program got the first reference to the file, but not the block that actually stores the contents of the file, when you restore your backup, your important source code now looks like gibberish that conveniently starts with the letters "JPEG." In theory, imaging software should be able to catch this kind of stuff when it's running, but reality is quite different, and that's why, unlike linux, windows requires that files be locked when in use. Imagine, too, that an important photograph you wanted to save just got replaced with the wonderful 2 letters "MZ".

However, if you program is smart, it'll read the disk and copy the files, rather than making images. This is bad, because often times you make images because of "unlisted files," which is called "forensics." The idea is to recover files that were accidentally deleted without sending them to the recycle bin (virus, shift-del, etc). Any program that follows the chains and actually reads the sectors immediately to prevent the race condition described above would then, in turn, not be able to read unlisted files and fail the job of computer forensics.
One thing about the ... even have forks.
Emulators are a niche market, though.
One last thing ... gaped PC.
You can, actually. Most people only know how to use the repositories. Package managers actually work on files, too. You can safely wiregap linux computers, but it's more tedious (not more tedious than windows). Some desktops even have support for double clicking their respective package files.
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ThorChild: And just in case this thread (and the growing feeling of tyranny under Windows 10) has made anyone curious to try a distro of Linux out, stay clear of Gentoo for the time being as it got hacked
Serve em right for being elitist snobs.
MS has been hacked alot, though. Same with Mac. This is why MS is being so tyrranical.
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kohlrak: Sorry, i'm hitting space limits, so i'm going to have to cut your quotes small.
Try to keep em shorter still, using too many words can things more confusing. I think I’ve done this myself.
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kohlrak: So, as you're about to say, big companies can't afford as many risks, but they also handle ambitious projects?
No, I probably over worded it. Most things start small but then grow size. The bigger they get the less risks they can take. But big companies can sustain their products with their profits. Linux distros can’t do this.

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kohlrak: The guy in question, and his team, were hired to make windows vista look like OSX.
Big corporations can be just as incompetent as small ones, but only writing a few lines of code throughout the year. I’d like to see a citation of this if you please. Do you have a link or anything?

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kohlrak: So, in other words, it's bad, because it's a free market of ideas? Let every idea flourish, because alot of people also have different needs.
Not quite. Put it this way. You hire 20 chefs to makeup a banquette and one maybe two to make you a bowl of soup. If you were to hire 20 chefs to cook you the soup you’d end up with Vista, 8, and Microsoft store. Because everyone has their own idea of what it should be and it’s just a bowl of soup. You hire 3 chefs to make you a banquette but it’s all just peas and rice. That’s Linux desktop.

20 to a banquette won’t be perfect but you will have mostly a good time. That’s Windows.
2 chefs to the soup that’s VLC and other small but good open source projects.

Here’s a great video from Jim Sterling that explains it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvHIpxJE2Ss

When you hire hundred of programs and start spending real money on software development the source code starts to gain monetary value. With that it’s wise to safe guard it.

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kohlrak: If it wasn't for linux and distros being a thing, we wouldn't even have android.
Of course we would. Might not have been called Android but there’s no way Google would pass up a chance to tackle the phone market. Even still MS also could’ve been the market leader. If they weren’t you know, shit. Their store app is the worst and there’s no exe or apk files that you can just download to get things working in your phone.

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kohlrak: The comparison is much like windows vs linux. 3DSMAX is like photoshop, while Blender is like GIMP. The projects are more... Infantile?
Yeah I’d say they are.

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kohlrak: Depends, actually. I never used clonezilla.
I have used clonezilla and it’s pretty bad. It works sure enough but as in the link I sent you Linux doesn’t even have an equivalent to VSS. Clonezilla really is about 10 years behind what can be done with the closed source alternatives on Windows. Forensic options are indeed available but are almost never necessary unless for a special job. I think you would already know the type though.

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kohlrak: Most will, including Linux. However, it's discouraged, and for good reason: if it's in use, changes can occur, which can ruin your backups.
I’ve done it quite a few times and have never had a problem. Exsepct for my browser losing it’s upmost history. VSS really is quite amazing, but I already talked about it enough.

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kohlrak: Emulators are a niche market, though.
Not as niche as Linux for desktop I’d wager.

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kohlrak: You can, actually.
The only way I can think of is to mirror the entire repository and any PPA’s you wish to include. Which is not something I am prepared to do. What I am prepaired to do is keep a backup of all the VC++ and dot net updates needed to making everything work. In total it’s less then half a gigabyte

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kohlrak: MS has been hacked alot, though. Same with Mac. This is why MS is being so tyrranical.
MS is also worth a lot of money Gentoo is not, also they keep putting people down for using Mint and such so I’m glad they got a little taste of what it feels like. I imaign that Mint nad Ubuntu fans are probably smiling a little too.
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kbnrylaec: 1. It fulfill all my needs. Stable, speedy, highly customizable. No, Windows and macOS are just not that customizable.

2. It is free! Free as in speech and free as in beer. Yes, you can pay to get Linux-related software or services, but usually you can get everything legally without cost of money.

(I use Linux as my primary OS for two decades.)
I've been using Linux longer than I've been using Windows, but I use both because each provides me with a certain set of advantages and disadvantages and so I get the best of both worlds. Wherever possible I prefer to use Linux both for productivity, development and other tasks where a Linux solution works well and the time and other resources I expend to set up the given solution and to maintain it over time give me a net benefit worthy of the deployment. The same is true of my use of Windows as well, which is to say that if a given solution is easy and works well on Windows but not so easy on Linux (or not available) then I'll use Windows. In each case for a given application domain I will explore similar types of software and gauge their suitability if I can't use the exact program I wish to use on my chosen OS.

Some of the reasons I prefer to use Linux when it is feasible include:
- I have 24 years experience with the system at a very deep level, much deeper than what is possible on Windows or other systems for a variety of reasons.
- As a developer I find the Linux platform gives me incredible flexibility, wide variety of free libraries/APIs and other development related applications and utilities including awesome commandline, TUI and GUI utilities.
- I have the source code of everything in the entire OS distribution, and all of the 3rd party open source programs I add on myself from elsewhere. This allows me to find and potentially fix bugs in them and send patches back to the devs.
- It is the ultimate server operating system with endless amounts of services available for free including multiple choices of app for a large number of them.
- Immense programmability is a core part of Linux/UNIX culture and very easy on Linux with dozens of programming languages, scripting languages etc. all built into the core OS as well as others easily added on.
- The OS is immensely customizeable both at a very low level and at the high level and in a manner that is IMHO much easier than Windows and of which documentation is much easier to find and consume.
- It is possible to hack up the OS in any way imaginable or even to custom make your own Linux distribution entirely from scratch if desired to further have a highly custom solution.
- I admire and appreciate the underlying philosophies and ideologies of open source software in general, and since 1995 I have believed that it would grow and evolve and eventually be the dominant form of computer software, back when people were laughing about it being some hacker's crazy wet dream. Nowadays Linux is everywhere, in a huge amount of smart devices, televisions, Android phones/tablets etc., refrigerators, set top boxes, routers, you name it. It runs a humongous amount of websites and other online services on the Internet, and continues to grow in usage every day.

I have other personal reasons for using Linux as well that I'd rather not add to the list at this time also. :)
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skeletonbow: - I admire and appreciate the underlying philosophies and ideologies of open source software in general, and since 1995 I have believed that it would grow and evolve and eventually be the dominant form of computer software, back when people were laughing about it being some hacker's crazy wet dream.
That's true, but the war is not finished. There is still a great struggle between closed and open solutions. I love that today I can use at home the same tools I use at work - R, RStudio, Python and thousands of libraries installed both at work and on my home Mint (to be honest, at home I have access to a lot more because of security policy at work). But on the other hand, there are still Windows-based environments at work, closed SAS (with terrible access to courses, books and educational materials). I'm not so sure if open-source is already a winner. I believe we should still fight for it and promote Linux-based and OS-based solutions.
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Magmarock: No, I probably over worded it. Most things start small but then grow size. The bigger they get the less risks they can take. But big companies can sustain their products with their profits. Linux distros can’t do this.
And here's where open source shines: you can take the risks, always.

Big corporations ... anything?
The last time i heard from the guy was before windows 7 was released. Google's changed the algorithms so much that I can't find the articles anymore. In case you want to take a shot at it, he was known for "only writing 100 lines of code in one year." He was also known as "the guy who did the start menu for vista." He was very critical of how he was having trouble communicating with the kernel development team, especially regarding the shutdown process.

Er, nvm i just found . Moshie Lettvin, according to [url=https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/11/24/how-many-microsofties-does-it-take-to-implement-the-off-menu/]this guy.

Not quite...projects.
I could go with "too many cooks spoil the broth," but sufficing for that would be way, way too easy. You see, with open source, it's more like how many chefs you hire for your casino, rather than for a single event: you hire 200 part time chefs with all their own opinions, vs 20 full time chefs. You're trying to please alot of different people. And it's more than just the numbers, with open source, every 10 chefs is a group, and they're assigned a table along with their shifts. If they disagree on something, they're also free to go to another table and work with another group of chefs, which really helps, since those situations where that one guy is the only guy running the table, he's mostly interested in his niche group of people who always take from his table, while more chefs can be devoted to pleasing the more common opinions, which also need more help to keep that table full of goodies.
Here’s...it.
Right: but one should also understand that if the customer buys a lawn mower, they expect to be allowed and able to replace the blades if they break. A skilled coder can figure out what you did just by looking at your program, even without the source, by analyzing input and output. Meanwhile, if they can patch or fix your bugs, and do so voluntarily, why are you not allowing them? Why don't projects take code suggestions? Right, because managers say no, and source would allow me to fork the product because your manager won't accept the bugfix.

Sure, we could go for the "but then they could pirate it and resell it," but that's just like the arguments against DRM-free, right? Sure it's possible, and if someone wanted to hijack your program and make it their own product, there's tools for that, even without the source.

Of course we...your phone.
They've relied alot on open source software to get their foot in the market. I'm pretty sure "hey, we could use linux" came up in the feasibility statement when proposing android. Google's been having trouble with people doing this rooting thing, and they've wanted to curb it. And it also turns out that OEMs have access to the android sources, which is a huge issue for Samsung users wishing to use microSD cards to expand their memory (which ended up being why i risked rooting the galaxy tab e that my girlfriend got me for my birthday). Google seems to be very, very big on half-assed open source support.
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kohlrak: The comparison is much like windows vs linux. 3DSMAX is like photoshop, while Blender is like GIMP. The projects are more... Infantile?
Yeah I’d say they are.
Which is alright, and a fair criticism of open source: most of the time the projects are volunteer, therefore things that the devs don't want or need tend not to get coded. OS Dev, web servers, etc are all either fun or much needed. Graphics editors? Not so much. OpenOffice, in particular, is coming around mostly out of slow need: most educated linux users are programmers, and thus don't have this constant need for the most pretty power point presentations (but do occasionally need ugly, effective ones).

And if you want someone to make something happen, well, that's what bounties are for.

I have used clonezilla ... though.
You'd be very, very surprised how often i've needed to do forensics when helping people with "computer problems." Not just file deletions, but sometimes i've had peope want to know how viruses or something got on the computers. Amazing how many exe files can be found amongst pictures, including in deleted data. I still get people bugging me for this type of work, despite how i openly tell people that I refuse to do windows support, anymore, unless i'm getting regular pay to do it: i give people options to avoid their problems and they then refuse them but demand i clean up their messes, anyway.

I’ve done it ... enough.
Are you also the same kind of person who likes to regularly shut down their computer by holding down the power button to make it go faster? I explained why the problems would happen, why they inevitably will happen, even if they haven't happened to you, yet, or if you simply haven't noticed them. Don't be like the 15 cigarettes a day smokers: you will most likely end up with lung cancer.
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kohlrak: Emulators are a niche market, though.
Not as niche as Linux for desktop I’d wager.
You could wager, but we could never know for certain. The interesting thing is that it's usually the same crowd who get both. However, just like windows emulator users, i also see people coding microcontrollers on linux without starfox 64 running in the background. To be fair, linux desktops seem to be mostly for universities, who have people that know how to install them. The barrier for installation fear is greater than that of emulators.

The only way...gigabyte
It all depends on what's in the package: is it statically linked, or dynamically linked? Dynamic linking is far more likely to require dependencies, while static linking requires fewer dependencies (since they're included in the executable). Other than that, you can simple download the .rpm, .deb, etc just fine. When there's dependencies, you'll often find that wherever you grab the files from, you can also grab the dependecy packages as well. If this were via CD or something, presumably the publisher would make sure compatible versions of all dependencies came on the CDs, too. I know there are issues with certain games on gog, but now we're talking about the closed source world, here, again.
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kohlrak: MS has been hacked alot, though. Same with Mac. This is why MS is being so tyrranical.
MS is also worth a lot of money Gentoo is not, also they keep putting people down for using Mint and such so I’m glad they got a little taste of what it feels like. I imaign that Mint nad Ubuntu fans are probably smiling a little too.
Yeah, and i'm totally against all the heated drama, but then again the heated discussions and debates that are open and free (free speech!) allow for people to discuss issues and come to conclusions and ultimately the average shmuck reading it all will decide for themselves based on the arguments who is right. I hate when it gets bitter, though, and people get hacked (beaten up by antifa), but the discourse should be encouraged. Simply trying to prevent opposing viewpoints won't make those viewpoints disappear. My server has a nice little fedora, which, iirc, got hacked in the past.
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kohlrak: Honestly, i think the big picture is that dependencies are an issue all around. We see programs include all of libc by default when all they're using is printf and maybe fgets. I've seen programs link and include all of libc even when they were only using syscalls. Something seriously needs to be done about that sort of thing. And it also begs the question, why is there so much junk statically linked as well? Then people wonder why we are having the windows virtual memory discussion in another thread. Then again, some things are indeed improving: my little triangle program is 7228 bytes (why in the world!?).
With respect to this:
* If you are using dynamic linking (the most common case, especially for libc), this is not an issue when it comes to libc (or other commonly used libraries). The library is already loaded by the syatem (and only needs to be loaded once), so the program that uses libc just for printf() and fgets() isn't wasting any resources by including parts of libc it doesn't use.
* If you are using static linking, the linker should only include the parts of libc that are actually used by the program. This would include printf() and fgets(), as well as every function they depend on (probably including a large portion of stdio, as well as functions to convert numbers to strings, and perhaps things like sprintf() (which printf() might simply call). Also, glibc is not optimized for static linking, so using something like uclibc can save a lot of space here.

You might find this article to be interesting:
https://busybox.net/use_less_ram.html
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kohlrak: Honestly, i think the big picture is that dependencies are an issue all around. We see programs include all of libc by default when all they're using is printf and maybe fgets. I've seen programs link and include all of libc even when they were only using syscalls. Something seriously needs to be done about that sort of thing. And it also begs the question, why is there so much junk statically linked as well? Then people wonder why we are having the windows virtual memory discussion in another thread. Then again, some things are indeed improving: my little triangle program is 7228 bytes (why in the world!?).
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dtgreene: With respect to this:
* If you are using dynamic linking (the most common case, especially for libc), this is not an issue when it comes to libc (or other commonly used libraries). The library is already loaded by the syatem (and only needs to be loaded once), so the program that uses libc just for printf() and fgets() isn't wasting any resources by including parts of libc it doesn't use.
* If you are using static linking, the linker should only include the parts of libc that are actually used by the program. This would include printf() and fgets(), as well as every function they depend on (probably including a large portion of stdio, as well as functions to convert numbers to strings, and perhaps things like sprintf() (which printf() might simply call). Also, glibc is not optimized for static linking, so using something like uclibc can save a lot of space here.

You might find this article to be interesting:
https://busybox.net/use_less_ram.html
What i'm finding in practice is that libc gets statically linked, but other libs don't. I think this is slowly changing and getting fixed, though.

EDIT: Yeah, i've seen problems like that before. Honestly, things have gotten alot better. I used to be a hardcore assembly advocate for anything that's closed source, because it wasn't going to be cross-platform, anyway. One of my reasons was to fix all the junk going wrong. I remember beating the compilers, even as a beginner of assembly, simply because they were adding a bunch of junk to function calls and the like. Now they're just adding junk to the programs themselves. I'm happy that, thanks to things like android phone and such, llvm and gcc are taking a hard look at optimizing as much as possible. It's not perfect, but it's way better than it was 10-15 years ago.
Post edited July 01, 2018 by kohlrak
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Lin545: Gentoo is correct, Mint is for noobs,
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Magmarock: They just got hacked lol. What a bunch of Newbs
One (1) of their members leaked github password. Also "hacked" is pretty unapplicable, if you understand basics of git and how average gentooer cares for their system.

There going to be rebuilds from scratch for the few that used the mirror in that short timeline.
... had portage implement nix technology, they wouldn't even need to reinstall - just swap out the packages.

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Magmarock: In Soviet Russia English breaks you, along with our free healthcare.
In Soviet Union healthcare was one of the best and completely free. Or what do you mean with "Soviet Russia" ? Soviet Russia existed between 1917 and 1922. I am sorry in case that broke you.

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Magmarock: oh my god MY GOD!! I don’t like Linux so I might as well STEAL EYES FROM THE ELDERLY!!! Where have you been all my life? combined with the broken English this is art.
You have a personal God? ... or just problems with logic? :/

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Magmarock: I bet you are. I’ve been laughing uncontrollably that the stuff you’ve written. I think in your case it might be a self fulfilled prophecy.
The most funny thing is that you seem to laugh alone. Or the most sad...
Post edited July 02, 2018 by Lin545
low rated
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kohlrak: And it's more than just the numbers, with open source, every 10 chefs is a group, and they're assigned a table along with their shifts. If they disagree on something, they're also free to go to another table and work with another group of chefs, which really helps, since those situations where that one guy is the only guy running the table, he's mostly interested in his niche group of people who always take from his table, while more chefs can be devoted to pleasing the more common opinions, which also need more help to keep that table full of goodies.
I agree with this when it comes to open source in general, but Linux is so niche that I would say the numbers are even smaller. They do matter because 5 people is hardly enough to make a full operating system imho. Also for every open source program you like there’s about a dozen you’d never want to use.

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kohlrak: Right: but one should also understand that if the customer buys a lawn mower, they expect to be allowed and able to replace the blades if they break. A skilled coder can figure out what you did just by looking at your program, even without the source, by analyzing input and output. Meanwhile, if they can patch or fix your bugs, and do so voluntarily, why are you not allowing them? Why don't projects take code suggestions? Right, because managers say no, and source would allow me to fork the product because your manager won't accept the bugfix.
No, it’s because source code itself is a commodity and they can’t just hand it out. Skilled coders can still patch closed source programs to an extent without having to access the source code. As for not taking suggestions this one should be obvious. Big companies often get suggestions from nobodies claiming to be some body. If you’re a good programmer they come to you, you don’t go to them. Something that Richard Stallman doesn’t quite seem to understand.
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kohlrak: Sure, we could go for the "but then they could pirate it and resell it," but that's just like the arguments against DRM-free, right?
Wrong, source code is a very different beast from DRM and is a lot more valuable then mere software. Take Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 for example. They’re both released/(going to be released) DRM-free. However, they’re both made with Red Engine 3. Have you tried to download Red Engine? Unlike Unity, Unreal Engine 3 Cry Engine. Red Engine 3 is proprietary software which literally means private. As in someone owns it, and someone has paid for it. Witcher 3 was the first AAA game released DRM-free but it’s code is one of the most tightly guarded secrets of the games industry. Not surprising considering what they were able to do with the tech. But also keep in mind how this style of business with is prevalent all throughout the games industry and is woefully incompatible with Linux FOSS philosophy. Which isn’t enough to just use open source software, it must be the only way in which things are done. This attitude is what I hate the most and the main reason Linux gets no love from games or anything else outside of the free shit from the repositories.

I have used clonezilla ... though.
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kohlrak: You'd be very, very surprised how often i've needed to do forensics when helping people with "computer problems."
Almost every imaging program has forensics duplication. My point was that Clonezilla is woefully behind the times and I don’t consider it a serious option for cloning, imaging, forensic or otherwise.

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kohlrak: Are you also the same kind of person who likes to regularly shut down their computer by holding down the power button to make it go faster? I explained why the problems would happen, why they inevitably will happen, even if they haven't happened to you, yet, or if you simply haven't noticed them. Don't be like the 15 cigarettes a day smokers: you will most likely end up with lung cancer.
WHAT! What a strange thing to say. Just because something is terrible in Linux doesn’t mean it’s going to be bad in Windows. VSS imaging is fantastic and it’s designed for live use. Also as I said Linux doesn’t have a VSS equivalent. I’m not even sure how you could image a Linux system during use. It probably wouldn’t be very good because once again Linux doesn’t have the tech to do it. Did you follow that Link I sent you? It goes into detail as to why that is.

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kohlrak: I know there are issues with certain games on gog, but now we're talking about the closed source world, here, again.
Like I said in the previous post Linux philosophy isn’t going to work well with closed source software. But this problem is just as bad with open source as well. This is what happens when you put all your dependency/DLL files in a repositories instead of just installing them in bulk like with dot-net and VC++ redistributables.

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kohlrak: Yeah, and i'm totally against all the heated drama, but then again the heated discussions and debates that are open and free (free speech!) allow for people to discuss issues and come to conclusions and ultimately the average shmuck reading it all will decide for themselves based on the arguments who is right. I hate when it gets bitter, though, and people get hacked (beaten up by antifa), but the discourse should be encouraged. Simply trying to prevent opposing viewpoints won't make those viewpoints disappear. My server has a nice little fedora, which, iirc, got hacked in the past.
Oh why did you have to bring politics into it. I also should say that I’m against heated drama but I think that might make me a hypocrite. I don’t condone hacking anyone, I’m just a little gleeful that the snobbiest people on the internet got a little taste of their own BS. But lets be serious for a moment. We both know that if they could the Linux community had their wish, Microsoft and Windows would be abolished and all source code would be open. They can’t make this happen but if they could they wold. Another reason I hate them.
Post edited July 03, 2018 by Magmarock
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Magmarock: WHAT! What a strange thing to say. Just because something is terrible in Linux doesn’t mean it’s going to be bad in Windows. VSS imaging is fantastic and it’s designed for live use. Also as I said Linux doesn’t have a VSS equivalent. I’m not even sure how you could image a Linux system during use. It probably wouldn’t be very good because once again Linux doesn’t have the tech to do it. Did you follow that Link I sent you? It goes into detail as to why that is.
LVM? Doesn't LVM allow you to make a snapshot of a running system, which you can then make an image of *while the system is running*? (You do need to use LVM when provisioning the system in the first place, but there's basically o overhead after that, except when a snapshot is active.)

Also, btrfs (filesystem) supports snapshots as well. Furthermore, if those aren't good enough, there's ZFS on Linux (or you could choose to run FreeBSD which includes ZFS, if you don't need to be running the Linux kernel but do need the features ZFS offers (and have the RAM for it)).
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kohlrak: And .. goodies.
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Magmarock: I agree with this when it comes to open source in general, but Linux is so niche that I would say the numbers are even smaller. They do matter because 5 people is hardly enough to make a full operating system imho. Also for every open source program you like there’s about a dozen you’d never want to use.
Have you ever tried making your own operating system? I have, and i can tell you from experience, that the biggest problem with OS development is drivers, which almost always (if not always) are done by the companies that make the hardware. There are OSes out there made by individuals. With open source, it's even better: your customers can sometimes be counted among your dev numbers. This is actually why Microsoft has been using open source for a few of it's newer projects: they noticed it's helping google compete with them at unprecedented levels.
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kohlrak: Right: ... bugfix.
No, it’s because source code itself is a commodity and they can’t just hand it out. Skilled coders can still patch closed source programs to an extent without having to access the source code.
Actually, you can't. It's illegal, and considered patent/copyrght violation. Companies allowing you to mod their games, like Betehsda, can legally nail people whenever they want. But, mods are good for business, so they allow it. However, they're keen to go after people who try to make money off the mods.
As for not taking suggestions this one should be obvious. Big companies often get suggestions from nobodies claiming to be some body. If you’re a good programmer they come to you, you don’t go to them. Something that Richard Stallman doesn’t quite seem to understand.
Ah, yes, credentialism. Gotta have your paperwork in order, despite so many companies currently complaining that half the people with degrees can't even draw a triangle out of text. This is called "argument from authority," and it's a logical fallacy. However, I can understand their position: they are taking risks after all. However, if the project's open source and gets forked, they're not really taking that risk, are they? Open source projects have the same problem, so people fork it, prove their fixes and code, and often times it'll end up adopted back into the original project after it's been proven in the field. If the still don't adopt the changes, well, that's capitalism: you now have a competing product, and natural selection will choose the winner.

Wrong, source...repositories.
Oh, so your problem isn't with free software in so much as your problem is with free software. It's a common misconception that free software means there's nothing being sold. Have you ever heard of RedHat linux? You see, you can't download the binaries, let alone the source code, without paying for it. Game engines are a special beast: are their sources actually available to their customers (the companies making games)? If so, it's this half-assed open-souce like we see with android: direct customers get the source, but not end-users. In other words, they're doing it, but they're doing the open source thing in a way that's not enforced all the way to the end-users. And why would a company give the engine's code to a customer? Remember, you can mod games to make new games without using the source code, which is how alot of engines (like Unity, Gamemaker, and so forth) work. So, anyone who gives the code to a customer, even if not to end-user, is clearly showing their half-assed support of open-source, to a certain extent.
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kohlrak: You'd be very, very surprised how often i've needed to do forensics when helping people with "computer problems."
Almost every imaging program has forensics duplication. My point was that Clonezilla is woefully behind the times and I don’t consider it a serious option for cloning, imaging, forensic or otherwise.
My big point is, i've used linux for a long time, doing things like that, and you're proposing that clonezilla is the big thing that everyone's using, thus showing how incompetent open-source software is, since clonezilla sucks. Do you know what they call that in intellectual circles? "Stawman fallacy." I don't care how bad clonezilla is: i don't use it. Should we talk about how terrible windows' logging system is for diagnosing problems with your computer, even though that's intended purpose? I could, but i'm willing to bet you don't use it, so why would i bring that up as a shining example of how closed-source software sucks? How about random game X on steam that's closed source?

WHAT! What ... is.
You do realize i'm talking about a limitation within real life in all OSes, not just Linux, right? And i did follow the link, and it didn't even talk about Linux, but Tetris. Actually, the kicker is, the technology to pull that off actually is in linux, unlike windows, thanks to OpenSource. If someone wanted to do it badly enough, the open source nature of linux would allow someone to write a special option or flag into the kernel so that all writes to the disk are temporarily cached in RAM until the flag is unset, which is something that's already done (yep, linux already has this option, as does windows, however windows only gives this access to windows), then the OS buffers all writes and such while the software can continue reading the raw disk info that would have any changes since the backup process started. This solution to the problem is not possible on Windows, without Microsoft's support, which they'll never likely give to anything other than their own programs. It really would be as simple as adding a few lines of code. And, who knows, maybe someone already did it.

Like ... redistributables.
Which defeats the whole purpose of dynamic linking: so multiple programs can share the same code, so they can also benefit from the same updates (including security patches). GOG, for compatibility reasons, grabs these things and redistributes them every time. How many copies of DirectX and .net does my computer need? How many of them are the same versions? How comes my backups of my games have to each have their own copy of these shared libraries taking up unhealthy amounts of space on my backup system? Basically, the practice of doing this (outside of gog's compatibility management reasons) is alot like giving everyone an inflatable boat, just so the navigator doesn't have to look at a map of the underwater mountains: if the ship goes down, everyone has their boats, but they're still going to have the problem of the underwater mountains (bloat, lack of updates to components, etc).

Oh why did you have to bring politics into it.
Because it is politics. It's like asking why anyone would bring politics into a discussion about the Stormcloak rebellion in Skyrim. This is all about free speech. Programming is a form of art, and source code is the work of art, and the program is the calendars, memes, etc that represents the practical application of that art, while the programmers are the artists. Everyone has their own idea how the source (painting) should look, and the artist can do their thing, and the other artists out there can do their own thing. But, alas, someone out there doesn't want us to have access to see the paintings, just the postcards and calendars.

Plus, it's a matter of principles. You could also see the source-code as the manifestation of debate, instead of art or closed room meetings. It's, really, all the damn same. If our goal is to find "the best" or "the truth," our best hope of doing so is getting as much saturation as possible, then separating the wheat from the chaff. As such, i do not necessarily mind closed source, myself, else, out of principle, i would not have bought so many games from GOG. However, these games are not something i want to worry about maintaining, modifying, or fixing. I expect GOG and the original devs to make them work and function to my heart's desire without my involvement. However, with operating systems and the like, I really like having many options, including the option to fix that which is broken. You can't trust companies to have the accountability to concern themselves with my desires on a regular working environment. The big kicker is, since i'm stuck on windows for the time being, i've been doing most of my coding and testing over SSH on my server.
I ... them.
You could say that about antifa, but I don't see any signs that you're out there pestering district attourneys to arrest antifa on sight, as opposed to after violence occurs. Yet, you're projecting onto the linux community this idea that everyone is against closed-software, which is debunked simply by pointing out that there are distros that openly admit mixing the two, such as Android. Is google not part of the Linux community? When i have some closed source software, how do I fit into your scenario? Meanwhile, here you are trying to tell us how open-source software is bad and we shouldn't support it. It seems to be you who are these things that you say, not us, and not even Microsoft or Stallman.

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dtgreene: ...
Set all writes to device to cache to RAM and/or swap, which is something windows and linux already do. All you need to do, though, is have it HOLD that cache and not write to the disk being read until the flag/file/whatever is cleared, at which point the cached writes are written to the disk. The program doing the backup sets and unsets that flag. Unlike windows, this can be done with minimal effort on linux, thanks to being open-source.
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kohlrak: You remind me of a windows user who says that windows is stable, while error message after error message appears on the screen, especially those warnings in the bottom right corner. Yep, totally user friendly, too!
Most error messages in Windows are nonsense. I usually just turn em off.
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kohlrak: Have you ever tried making your own operating system?
Not especially but I have tried making a game though and that was enough. I won’t be convinced that OS development is nothing short of a large undertaking. If you want it to be of any real use that is.
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kohlrak: Actually, you can't. It's illegal, and considered patent/copyrght violation.
Depends on the nature of the mod and what it does. I helped a programmer make some for a few games I liked. Funnily enough his mods themselves are closed source. They’re just DLL files that you copy into the games directory. No one has gotten arrested though.
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kohlrak: Ah, yes, credentialism. Gotta have your paperwork in order, despite so many companies currently complaining that half the people with degrees can't even draw a triangle out of text. This is called "argument from authority,"
No this not an argument from authority, the private sector expects results. You just just go up to them and say “hey I’ve got a great idea on how you should do things. I’m a really good open source programmer listen to me”
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kohlrak: Oh, so your problem isn't with free software in so much as your problem is with free software. It's a common misconception that free software means there's nothing being sold.
It’s not that nothing can be sold it’s just not a very profitable endeavour. Everyone brings up Red Hat is there nothing else that makes money? And just how much money does it make anyway.
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kohlrak: My big point is, i've used Linux for a long time, doing things like that, and you're proposing that clonezilla is the big thing that everyone's using, thus showing how incompetent open-source software is, since clonezilla sucks.
No, my point was that Clonezilla sucks because it’s competition is better. It’s not that it’s competently made, it’s that people only use it because it’s open source not because it’s it’s good. An example of how the FOSS communities determination to use only free and open software holds them back.
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kohlrak: You do realize i'm talking about a limitation within real life in all OSes, not just Linux, right? And i did follow the link, and it didn't even talk about Linux, but Tetris. Actually, the kicker is, the technology to pull that off actually is in linux, unlike windows, thanks to OpenSource. If someone wanted to do it badly enough,
And yet it can’t. There’s nothing on Linux that even approaches that level of functionality. I’m not really interested in potential features or what could be. Only what is. It’s also worth noting that you don’t have any hands on experience with VSS imaging programs by your own admission. I have experience with both Linux and VSS imaging. Maybe try experimenting it in in a virtual machine or something. Should still work even in a Linux host.
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kohlrak: Which defeats the whole purpose of dynamic linking: so multiple programs can share the same code, so they can also benefit from the same updates (including security patches). GOG, for compatibility reasons, grabs these things and redistributes them every time.
No they don’t. Shadow Worrier 2013 (Direct X 11 edition) doesn’t come packed with VC++ redist 2012. So if you install it on a computer without internet (like my main gaming rig) it will not work. The way DLL files work in Windows is way different from how dependencies work in Linux. I much prefer the Windows method. Once those packs are installed just about everything should work.
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kohlrak: However, these games are not something i want to worry about maintaining, modifying, or fixing. I expect GOG and the original devs to make them work and function to my heart's desire without my involvement.
Boy have I got news for you. GOG do what they can but just about every GOG that I’ve downloaded has required some kind of mod patch or fix that I’ve had to grab of the internet to get the most out of it. One such Example is Fear. Without an input DLL file to fix calls to hardware the games frame-rate will drop to an unplayable level. For some reason GOG refuses to include this in their build of the game. They did however post a link to the site from which you can get it. The man who made the patch wasn’t happy that he didn’t receive credit for it making it in their articles description.
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kohlrak: However, with operating systems and the like, I really like having many options, including the option to fix that which is broken. You can't trust companies to have the accountability to concern themselves with my desires on a regular working environment.
Can’t really trust communities to maintain an OS either. But can you give me an example of the kind of problem you were able to fix in Linux that could never be fixed in something like Windows.
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kohlrak: You could say that about antifa,
Honestly, I’m not sure what this is a response to.
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kohlrak: Is google not part of the Linux community? When i have some closed source software, how do I fit into your scenario?
No I would say that google uses open source assets but in not “part of the Linux community”

As for you well I don’t really know you but you come across as someone who prefers to use Linux but not quite as fanatical and dedicated as some others. So some strong opinions but not a total fanboy.

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kohlrak: Meanwhile, here you are trying to tell us how open-source software is bad and we shouldn't support it. It seems to be you who are these things that you say, not us, and not even Microsoft or Stallman.
This couldn’t be more wrong. Either you’ve completely misread my argument you’re trying to lead me in a trap. I’m saying using open source EXCLUSIVELY is bad. Or something something inferior over something superior due to source code availability is also bad. If it’s good then it’s good and you should use it. Likewise if it’s bad and not as good don’t use it. You don’t go around playing shitty flash games just because they’re free do you. I once went to a Linux meet group and it was full of nut cases. One of them admitted to me that he listens to awful music created by his friend instead of listing to anything created by a record label. Not liking modern music is one thing but torturing yourself just to be “indie” that’s something else. I’ve linked this video multiple times and it really sums up my thoughts towards the Linux community in a nutshell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV68DJ2SLyc
Post edited July 03, 2018 by Magmarock

No, it’s because source code itself is a commodity and they can’t just hand it out. Skilled coders can still patch closed source programs to an extent without having to access the source code.
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kohlrak: Actually, you can't. It's illegal, and considered patent/copyrght violation. Companies allowing you to mod their games, like Betehsda, can legally nail people whenever they want. But, mods are good for business, so they allow it. However, they're keen to go after people who try to make money off the mods.
There is a serious misuse of language here; the word "can" (and, of course, contractions like "can't") refers to whether ome is capable of doing something, not whether one is allowed to do that thing. In this case, there is a big difference between the two; it being illegal says nothing about whether it's legal. The post you are replying to did not state anything about legality, which you brought up in your reply which doesn't work. (The correct word to use in your reply would be "may", or rather "may not".)

There exist public source code repositories with restrictive licenses; you may not be permitted to modify the code and then compile it, but you can still look at it and see how it works. Though I haven't seen it in the wild, it's possible that there could be binary code whose source isn't available, but which is distributed under a license that permits modification (though it is much harder wtihout the source code).
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Magmarock: Most error ... off.
Well, that's easy. Oh wait, it's not.

Not especially ... is.
It is a large undertaking, but it's not unreasonable. Most games are about as complex as operating systems, these days, and some more so. My guess, however, is that you don't have much experience in either.

Depends on ... though.
Well, people haven't ended up arrested for skyrim mods, either, but alot of high quality devs don't like taking a risk that it could end up that way. Most reasonably understand you won't for Bethesda games, but what about, say, runescape? You make your own server from scratch, then mod the client so it points to your server. That's not so wrong, right? Turns out, that's copyright violation. Usually when you (e-)sign an EULA, you agree not to modify the program's binaries Doing so violates your license to use the program, thus by continuing to use it after making or downloading a mod for it, you are in violation of copyright law. In practice, not often an issue, but if you make money on coding other types of software, you take a huge risk if someone decides to come after you for a mod. Most things that openly allow mods have a clause just for modders, but have fun defending yourself if the company isn't modder friendly. I remember there was a big discussion about Dead or Alive 5: Last Round on steam on freestepdodge, because people were making mods for free that had the power to compete with the official DLC.

No this not an argument from authority, ... to me”
Argument from authority means your argument is judged on you, rather than it's own merit. And sure, the private sector expects results, which is why open souce works well in the private sector. It gets results. If i'm not allowed to make changes, outsell your changes, or prove my changes in a working environment, but instead say "you don't have the credentials for it," it's very much argument from authority. You're also monopolizing the debate, as well. I respect a company to have the right to refuse changes, however I also respect the right of a customer to make changes to something they have purchased. But, there's the rub: most people aren't realizing that with closed source software, you don't buy the software, you buy a "license to use the software," which is a pretty big difference and deal. This also means it can, effectively, be revoked at any time, and for any reason, which most EULAs remind you of. Naturally, we don't regularly see this type of technique being done by companies to force upgrades and/or repurchases, however that is totally legal, as well, just really, really bad for business. The whole DRM thing definitely makes me feel like we're approaching a point where we'll see it happen, though.

It’s not that ... anyway.
People bring up red hat, because it's the first thing they think of. What about android? We usually cite these, because they're operating systems, and usually people focus on linux when focusing on open source. But, hey, let's take a look at a github page on the topic.

No, my point was that ... back.
Still the strawman, it's main competition is things like DD, DDRESCUE, linux itself, and a bunch of others, which are quite competent. I'm not being held back by clonezilla, since i don't use it. The software i use for the tasks are capable for the job. If you want to play that game, Roxio can't even do hard disk images, and that's paid software, and quite common. Shall we judge all closed-source programs based on roxio, to be fair with how you're doing it with clonezilla? This is why we shouldn't make strawman arguments.

And ... host.
Why should i download and use a piece of software that you support, when you are pulling strawman arguments on software i support? Clearly, if clonezilla is the highlight of your argument, then either you don't have the full linux experience, or you're willfully playing dumb to troll. Tell me, what does your software have, that is actually considered good practice, that something on linux can't do?

No they don’t. ... should work.
Then you should tell gog about this error in their installers, and be thankful that you don't have this problem with systems with package management in that it'll come right out and tell you what you need before installing.

Boy have I ... description.
Interesting. Well, i pay gog for support. If i have trouble getting a game to work, at no fault of my own, i have rights. If something were to happen to that download, and if i was unable to play that game despite purchasing it, i would expect gog to refund. If they don't, they'll loose me as a customer. If a large enough portion of my purchases suddenly stop working due to something like that, i'll get a lawyer, and probably win, but i seriously doubt it would get that far, which is why i still buy games on gog.

But, i wonder why it is that they can't include the DLL... Could it have something to do with closed source software and copyright issues? You don't seem to know the answer, otherwise i figure you would've told me the punch line, already.

Can’t really ... like Windows.
A number of them actually, one of which actually caused the switch. The most important is the security fixes: windows is pretty slow to get security patches, and known issues can stay in windows for years, despite being well known and used by hacking groups. IIRC, i outlined one such example above, where a program was, until windows xp sp3, able to bypass hardware firewalls and software firewalls, without any sort of notification or warning, and arbitrarily download remotely hosted data. I thought about, one time, using that practice to make a "proxy" using the technology and demonstrating it in my highschool, just to show how useless the blacklists they were using really were. I ended up deciding not to, since it wasn't going to win me any favors, when i was trying to win over the tech people involved to improve the scenario (unblock student resources and student made pages).

Honestly, I’m not sure what this is a response to.
Everything you're saying about the open-source community in the text you've quoted.
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kohlrak: Is google not part of the Linux community? When i have some closed source software, how do I fit into your scenario?
No I would say that google uses open source assets but in not “part of the Linux community”
Not just any open-source assets, but Linux itself. Or are you only including people who are exclusively free-software only, which even Linus Torvalds doesn't agree with (which is why Linux is under the "Lesser GNU GPL").
As for you well I don’t really know you but you come across as someone who prefers to use Linux but not quite as fanatical and dedicated as some others. So some strong opinions but not a total fanboy.
Of course, and no one is. I haven't met one person out there who agrees completely in every way with someone else. Some might say they do, but it isn't realistic when you really test them. I like Linux, i hate windows, and i hate OSX even more. Kolibri's a nice toy, my own kernel is more work than i'm willing to do (since i built it from scratch and entirely in x86 assembly), DexOS is also a lovely little toy, and menuet is a joke. I could go on, but i digress. I'm as much a part of the linux community as anyone else in this thread.
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kohlrak: Meanwhile, here you are trying to tell us how open-source software is bad and we shouldn't support it. It seems to be you who are these things that you say, not us, and not even Microsoft or Stallman.
This couldn’t be ...
No, you're saying there are projects that open-source can't do, like OS development. I think Linux has done a great job at proving itself capable. It's not the centerpiece of the desktop market, but it's got a nice strong following in mobile, which will get even stronger if we can get something else on the scene that's a bit more open than even android. For now, i'm accomplishing amazing things with my android tablet that i could never do on iphone or windows phone, like microcontroller development. I'm not even sure one even has to "jailbreak"/"root" their device to do this, but it's much less of a big deal than with the other platforms.

But, please, don't sit there and link videos. I'm not going to go through a video and sit there and argue with every point that you can't even be bothered to post here yourself for easy dissection.
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kohlrak: Actually, you can't. It's illegal, and considered patent/copyrght violation. Companies allowing you to mod their games, like Betehsda, can legally nail people whenever they want. But, mods are good for business, so they allow it. However, they're keen to go after people who try to make money off the mods.
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dtgreene: There is a serious misuse of language here; the word "can" (and, of course, contractions like "can't") refers to whether ome is capable of doing something, not whether one is allowed to do that thing. In this case, there is a big difference between the two; it being illegal says nothing about whether it's legal. The post you are replying to did not state anything about legality, which you brought up in your reply which doesn't work. (The correct word to use in your reply would be "may", or rather "may not".)

There exist public source code repositories with restrictive licenses; you may not be permitted to modify the code and then compile it, but you can still look at it and see how it works. Though I haven't seen it in the wild, it's possible that there could be binary code whose source isn't available, but which is distributed under a license that permits modification (though it is much harder wtihout the source code).
Ok, i'll take that. I'll rephrase "you can't legally do that." You're right, that is a very important distinction. However, for coding professionals (which is largely the standpoint he seems to be angling), it really is a big deal. You don't hire coders who have a copyright violation track record, even if you're developing open-source software. Therefore, you really would end up loosing a ton of money as a programmer, which is definitely where his argument comes from.

And sorry for late reply, had to wait due to post size limits.