Posted June 30, 2018
Lin545
May. 24, 2022
Registered: Jun 2011
From Russian Federation
Lin545
May. 24, 2022
Registered: Jun 2011
From Russian Federation
Posted June 30, 2018
* Dependency resolution takes far longer than it should.
* Because it's source based, package installation and updates take longer than with binary package managers. There are a few packages where this is a major issue, such as chromium (whcih can take hours to compile on a modern system).
For building a complete system from source, I personally like buildroot; I actually built a system for my Raspberry Pi Zero with it, and I was able to make it never mount the filesystem read/write. (Doing this means that I don't have to worry about not shutting down properly, as there's no filesystem that could be corrupted.)
"installation and updates take longer than with binary package managers" Don't think its an issue really, on old athlon II x4, it took about 12 hours to re-emerge world, .. and its in background. Today it should be 6-8 hours average, which is manageable given the benefits. Incremental package install is rarely more than 30 minutes.
I used Gentoo several years ago, but I remember several things bothered me personally were like:
- its non-atomic, hence it has a possible surprise effect. You can re-boot into system to discover its broken and you can't rollback unless prepared with fs snapshots or similar.
- there was no binary cache, like nixos has, so if you build a package with these USE flags, there is no name-hashing mechanism which can automatically discover that there is a precompiled version with exact such flags in binary repository. So, it could then download and unpack it, instead of building, significantly cutting the time whilst keeping flexibility. You can binhost on Gentoo, Calculate for example has binary repository, but because it doesn't perform hash-based resolution, its not as deep as on nixos.
- configuration updates, but YMMV. The advantage of managed configuration is neglected by another abstraction layer to write it.
But I have big respect with Gentoo, its one of my favorite systems.
dtgreene
vaccines work she/her
Registered: Jan 2010
From United States
Posted June 30, 2018
* Dependency resolution takes far longer than it should.
* Because it's source based, package installation and updates take longer than with binary package managers. There are a few packages where this is a major issue, such as chromium (whcih can take hours to compile on a modern system).
For building a complete system from source, I personally like buildroot; I actually built a system for my Raspberry Pi Zero with it, and I was able to make it never mount the filesystem read/write. (Doing this means that I don't have to worry about not shutting down properly, as there's no filesystem that could be corrupted.)
"installation and updates take longer than with binary package managers" Don't think its an issue really, on old athlon II x4, it took about 12 hours to re-emerge world, .. and its in background. Today it should be 6-8 hours average, which is manageable given the benefits. Incremental package install is rarely more than 30 minutes.
As for the time of installation and updates, there are a few packages that are particularly bad at this. When I was using Gentoo, whenever I would see chromium on the list of packages that need updating, I would be reluctant to actually do it, becuase that package alone takes several hours alone to update; unfortunately, it also happens to be one of the more frequently updated packages. Incidentally, apparently there are actually -bin packages in Gentoo for the worst offencers, including chromium, firefox, and (though I don't use it) libreoffice; it saves you the compile time, but you lose the benefits of custom compilation.
Also, my new laptop is rated at only 8 hours of battery life; a 12 hour emerge would not be possible on battery power. (I seem to remember there being an option to compile but not install; that option should at least avoid the problems of having an install be broken because the battery went out at the worst possible time. Of course, to take advantage of this, you might want to make sure that the results of the compilation are saved to persistent storage (that is, not tmpfs).)
incidentally, buildroot avoids the first problem (everything is done by kconfig, and you are not expected to update such a system in place), and the second problem is mitigated by the fact that it doesn't provide the really big packages, and that you usually wouldn't want them in the situations where buildroot would be used. Also, buildroot is better for the case where you compile on a fast machine and run on a slow machine.
immi101
User
Registered: May 2010
From Germany
Posted July 01, 2018
a) compile options are part of the dependency chain
b) has to account for build time dependencies as well
I feel like the speed of the dependency resolution is quite usable nowadays (compared to like 10 years ago when the slow speed was a major pain in the ass).
But maybe I'm just used to it :)
dnovraD
2023-08-14: Remember the Spaces!
Registered: Jul 2012
From United States
Posted July 01, 2018
a) compile options are part of the dependency chain
b) has to account for build time dependencies as well
I feel like the speed of the dependency resolution is quite usable nowadays (compared to like 10 years ago when the slow speed was a major pain in the ass).
But maybe I'm just used to it :)
Just for reference [url=https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Scriptlets]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Scriptlets[/url] this is how it goes for RPMs.
And here's how it goes for Debian. As you can see, the order changes entirely how the process goes.
(Pardon the odd line breaks, but the forum tends to break if you do more than one URL per line.)
Post edited July 01, 2018 by Darvond
kohlrak
One Sooty Birb - Available on DLsite.com, not
Registered: Aug 2014
From United States
Posted July 01, 2018
a) compile options are part of the dependency chain
b) has to account for build time dependencies as well
I feel like the speed of the dependency resolution is quite usable nowadays (compared to like 10 years ago when the slow speed was a major pain in the ass).
But maybe I'm just used to it :)
Honestly, i think the big picture is that dependencies are an issue all around. We see programs include all of libc by default when all they're using is printf and maybe fgets. I've seen programs link and include all of libc even when they were only using syscalls. Something seriously needs to be done about that sort of thing. And it also begs the question, why is there so much junk statically linked as well? Then people wonder why we are having the windows virtual memory discussion in another thread. Then again, some things are indeed improving: my little triangle program is 7228 bytes (why in the world!?).
Post edited July 01, 2018 by kohlrak
kohlrak
One Sooty Birb - Available on DLsite.com, not
Registered: Aug 2014
From United States
Posted July 01, 2018
In regards to saying that you're entitled I apologize. I get a very communist vibe from the Linux community, which is why I tend to be a little aggressive.
The thing about communism is that annarcho-communism doesn't last, neither does annarcho-capitalism. Anarchy maintaining order is quite the paradox. Tyranny is all about order and control, while anarchy is all about freedom and chaos. One of the big things about how things are done in the open source movement, though, is that the freedom is pushed in such a way that we can have the freedom to not be in absolute chaos, either. Pretty much everyone understood that from the beginning, which is why permissions were a huge deal, especially in version control. The idea is, you have the freedom to do your own thing, even if someone disagrees with you, unlike under a totalitarian software company. However, just like open source is not complete anarchy, neither is a capitalist company entirely totalitarian. Your complaints about the linux community is regarding, basically, a form of totalitarianism. Try going and working for microsoft and see how well your ideas for improvements go. Hint: a guy managed to get fired because he was put into a position where competence was impossible, so he said that devs needed to talk more to each other so that they're actually on the same page. They ignored his warnings, and we got Vista.
It's kind of like freedom in government: you're going to have people who disagree with you, and want to shut you down and even make light of you. Where you're actually different is that under open source, you have the freedom to do your own thing when people disagree with you. With closed source, have fun. Don't get me wrong, closed source has it's points, but we really should ask ourselves whether or not if i buy something, i should have the right to improve upon it and redistribute it. It's really not that different from politicians having closed door meetings about policies and then voting on them before the public has a chance to react: those meetings are the source code, so should that be open or closed? Do i have the right, then, with article 13, to take their arguments in the meetings and talk about the good points and the bad points then disseminate that?
What's going on in the background of a website to help it run is not really my business, unless it's handling my data (just like the identities of CIA agents). This thing in in my house, i should have the right to know what it's doing. I should also have the right to do something about things it does that i don't agree with. And, since i had to pay for it to see and know what it does wrong (if you assume i have that right), i should also have the right to criticize it and warn other customers and, perhaps, make fixes that other customers can benefit from.
The problem is, under the current software climate, closed source software is like a shadow government agency. See here for many more details.
Magmarock
New User
Registered: Jul 2011
From Australia
ThorChild
New User
Registered: Sep 2011
From United Kingdom
Posted July 01, 2018
And just in case this thread (and the growing feeling of tyranny under Windows 10) has made anyone curious to try a distro of Linux out, stay clear of Gentoo for the time being as it got hacked:
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/06/29/linux-distro-hacked-on-github-all-code-considered-compromised/
Now a new user trying to roll their own OS is unlikey (much more likely to go the Ubuntu/Mint route i suspect), but just in case you are fed up with MS and looking at the Penguin keep in mind that even Linux can be compromised so do your homework on which distro to try first :)
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/06/29/linux-distro-hacked-on-github-all-code-considered-compromised/
Now a new user trying to roll their own OS is unlikey (much more likely to go the Ubuntu/Mint route i suspect), but just in case you are fed up with MS and looking at the Penguin keep in mind that even Linux can be compromised so do your homework on which distro to try first :)
Magmarock
New User
Registered: Jul 2011
From Australia
Posted July 01, 2018
low rated
In regards to saying that you're entitled I apologize. I get a very communist vibe from the Linux community, which is why I tend to be a little aggressive.
The thing about communism is that annarcho-communism doesn't last, neither does annarcho-capitalism. Anarchy maintaining order is quite the paradox. Tyranny is all about order and control, while anarchy is all about freedom and chaos. One of the big things about how things are done in the open source movement, though, is that the freedom is pushed in such a way that we can have the freedom to not be in absolute chaos, either. Pretty much everyone understood that from the beginning, which is why permissions were a huge deal, especially in version control. The idea is, you have the freedom to do your own thing, even if someone disagrees with you, unlike under a totalitarian software company. However, just like open source is not complete anarchy, neither is a capitalist company entirely totalitarian. Your complaints about the linux community is regarding, basically, a form of totalitarianism. Try going and working for microsoft and see how well your ideas for improvements go. Hint: a guy managed to get fired because he was put into a position where competence was impossible, so he said that devs needed to talk more to each other so that they're actually on the same page. They ignored his warnings, and we got Vista.
It's kind of like freedom in government: you're going to have people who disagree with you, and want to shut you down and even make light of you. Where you're actually different is that under open source, you have the freedom to do your own thing when people disagree with you. With closed source, have fun. Don't get me wrong, closed source has it's points, but we really should ask ourselves whether or not if i buy something, i should have the right to improve upon it and redistribute it. It's really not that different from politicians having closed door meetings about policies and then voting on them before the public has a chance to react: those meetings are the source code, so should that be open or closed? Do i have the right, then, with article 13, to take their arguments in the meetings and talk about the good points and the bad points then disseminate that?
What's going on in the background of a website to help it run is not really my business, unless it's handling my data (just like the identities of CIA agents). This thing in in my house, i should have the right to know what it's doing. I should also have the right to do something about things it does that i don't agree with. And, since i had to pay for it to see and know what it does wrong (if you assume i have that right), i should also have the right to criticize it and warn other customers and, perhaps, make fixes that other customers can benefit from.
The problem is, under the current software climate, closed source software is like a shadow government agency. See here for many more details.
It seems that you're the first person to see where I'm coming from. I still disagree with you on a few points though. But you're right about me not believing that volunteer programmers can achieve the results as paid coders in corporation. However, I'm not suggesting that closed source software is better at everything, but I would say it's better at larger more ambitious projects.
Lets take your Microsoft example. I'm not sure how true it is but it wouldn't superpose if it was. Microsoft is a big company and a lot is at stake. They really can't just takes those kind of risks. Furthermore no matter how good your idea might be these echo systems rely on proven grounds first and foremost. In other words, they need evidence that an idea is good, not just theory. It can't just sound good on paper they need to see it demonstrated in action before they're willing to back it. In my opinion MS is simply too big for it's own good.
When open source, you're right there's a lot more freedom there which is why hobbits programmers like it but what about end users? While there are good open source projects out there (emulators being my personal favorite) I don't consider desktop Linux to be a good example of it. Linux is also too big for it's own good and in a way that very similar to MS. There are too many people witch too many ideas on what should be done. Package managers: APT, Pacman YUM. Repositories and local package managers suck as appimage flatpacks and snappies. All show signs of the community unwillingness and in ability to make their minds on where to takes things.
When Bill gates as in charge of Microsoft. It was one man one vision and an entire team to see it done. Windows has a monopoly but after mulling this over quite some time it occurred to me that monopolies can be a good thing. As with Android if you don’t like how something is someone somewhere will have made a “tool” or “program” to make it do the thing. Even if they have to work with closed source to do it.
With Linux you might have more freedom as a programer with everything being open. But as a end-user not so much. It’s too niche and everyone is off doing their own thing. So what happens is that you end up with a million slightly different versions of the same thing. Ex Mint Ubuntu Debian. Rather then one thing with a million tools for it. To me this is evidence that open source is really only equipped to do small things. Open source browsers are great and so are media players. Libreoffice which I do prefer is not something I can 100% recommend. I suggest people try it but it’s not a replacement for word. I use it only for it’s document software and it was harder to learn but I’m not using it for anything serious.
Once you start getting into bigger things; is when open source starts to show it’s weakness. I use Vmware workstation pro, but not before trying virtualbox. Vmware was quite expensive so if I could save money I would. But Workstation was simply better. More powerful and easier to use with an almost 100% directX emulation there’s no way a I could turn it down. (Workstation also has very reasonable DRM imoh)
Another examples is Blender and Autiodesk. Again some people prefer Blender but that’s more to principles rather then ease of use or how good the software is. If they could get both as open source I’m sure the’d pick Maya or 3DSMAX in a heartbeat.
Anther one I would like to personally mention is imaging software. The best open source imaging software for Linux is Clonezilla. But that a joke compared to what you can get for Windows. TodoBackup Paragon and Macrium Reflect
Has has thing thing called VSS which allows you to image your computer while it is in use. You can read more about it here. https://forum.macrium.com/Topic24066.aspx#24104
One thing about the open source scene that seems to break this rule is the development of emulators. By no means a simple task but when you look at things like Dolphin and Cemu, the only signs that they’re open source from their production is how long it takes for them to be made. They have all the signs of a closed source development. Large teams, tight control over what features get added, and fixes are made, and finally a monopoly on their prospective system. Dolphin is the only emulator for gamecube and Wii. There is a fork called Ishiiruka. But it’s kind of rubbish. Most emulators these days don’t even have forks.
One last thing I’ll add is when it comes to operating systems I’m not a fan of inovation.
See I don't actually like it when Microsoft "innovates" I'd prefer it if they did less innovation and more making sure it just works" I just want to run as many programs as possible with as little getting in the way. Repositories and package managers annoy me quite a bit. Without internet I don’t see how you can use them. My main gaming rig is an air gaped PC.
Serve em right for being elitist snobs.
Post edited July 01, 2018 by Magmarock
dnovraD
2023-08-14: Remember the Spaces!
Registered: Jul 2012
From United States
Magmarock
New User
Registered: Jul 2011
From Australia
Magmarock
New User
Registered: Jul 2011
From Australia
Posted July 01, 2018
low rated
Its not Linux disadvantage that Witcher 3 was not released for it, it technically completely capable to run it.
This is why your "I use Windows because I can play Witcher 3" is indeed weakest argument.
Its not funny, its sad, IMHO.
oh my god MY GOD!! I don’t like Linux so I might as well STEAL EYES FROM THE ELDERLY!!! Where have you been all my life? combined with the broken English this is art.
You just not important enough to dude
They just got hacked lol. What a bunch of Newbs
I bet you are. I’ve been laughing uncontrollably that the stuff you’ve written. I think in your case it might be a self fulfilled prophecy.
Alm888
No Tux == No ₽
Registered: Nov 2014
From Russian Federation
Posted July 01, 2018
Slow down, friend; I'm writing it down! So, "to dude", verb… What exactly does it mean? :)
Running out of arguments, aren't we?
Your trolling was entrertaining, my green friend, but all that is good needs to end. I think, it is time to leave. :)
Magmarock
New User
Registered: Jul 2011
From Australia
Posted July 01, 2018
low rated
Your trolling was entrertaining, my green friend, but all that is good needs to end. I think, it is time to leave. :)
Also this thread wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for my "why use Linux" thread. Everything you do is credited toward me. I am the most intresting thing in your life. Maybe you should play some more games on your... nevermind.
Post edited July 01, 2018 by Magmarock