To respond to this point specifically, you have such a double standard. To say most of the people on government assistance CAN'T be productive is wrong simply because it can not be proven. It would be like me saying all the people collecting free benefits are scamming it, and I didn't because it's most likely false. Most people can and choose not to. The biggest fundamental flaw in your discussion is you assume most people are broken and weak and we are simply not. It is not exceptionally hard to get a job (my daughter just got 2 in a one week period) if you put in the work and effort. It is only hard to get a job if you don't really want one or if you're truly disabled, which again most people aren't.

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything at this point. My story is mine. But you can ask around and see many many more just like it.

You believe as you will, and wrong or right nothing will change that. We are shaped by our life experiences. Yours have conditioned you to believe that the government should give handouts to everyone. In that society, it fails when the people who work to produce the money are outnumbered by those looking to vacuum it up because they have the exact same amount of votes per person. And when all the hard workers realize the government will pay out, they stop working because they can reap benefits without working. Until there are no benefits to behold. But why should that matter, right? Society will collapse under it's own weight.

The original government was never meant to be anything but a loosely knit group of people who met a few times a year to discuss problems. Most countries don't have Presidents ruling them. Presidents preside over clubs and special groups. The president of the US is one of the first and only cases of a president running a country. The founding fathers believed a powerful all present government was a bad thing. Now, times have changed, and a lot of that is due to perversions of the founding fathers like the politicians that sit in office today. Those spots were supposed to be the common man, and representative of the common man's needs.

I never said most people were scammers. You have completely twisted my argument. If most were scammers I would have zero problem cutting all government assistance like that. I said I didn't know if they were the majority, but that they were there. People will stay on welfare when possible because in general (not everyone but most) people are simple beings. They follow the path of least resistance. It's nature. It's easy to predict how people in some situations will respond. It's called sociology. The person is intelligent. People are stupid and refuse to think for themselves.

You are a fatalist, believing that you have a predetermined destiny, and nothing will change that. "Are you poor and destitute? then this is your lot in life. Sorry!" I don't believe that and I changed my circumstances. To be so fatalist as you are, you may as well say "You're lucky a bus didn't fall out of the sky and kill you while you were typing that post" or "You're lucky you haven't been struck by a life threatening illness one day" Sure. I'm lucky. I also take precautions to ensure I don't have to dive into dumpsters for food anymore. It's called you don't worry about the things you can't control, and you change the things you can. It's a simple concept. I don't just lay back and wait for life to happen to me. I reach out and take what I need and do what I must.

On this note, I think I'm done. Call it a win if you want, but you've provided no solid points to disprove and vice versa because the evidence just isn't there. For every "down on his luck" person with no means to work, I can show you a "not gonna lift a finger since the benefits of not working are better" person or a "life won't keep me down and I will rise above" person. It will go around and around, you won't be convinced and I won't. Thanks for not being an idiot but I feel you are wrong as strongly as you feel that I am. And we'll likely never find out who is actually right because the dickheads running the place will never pull their heads out of their asses enough to actually fix the problems.

That's certainly something you don't hear every day. I think the poor quality of Lada led us to believe the opposite.

I think the blooming capitalistic black market during the USSR days somehow underlined what the Russian people really wanted in those happy happy days.

So you are saying someone who has serious health problems, mental problems, no car and on top of that considered unemployable by employers can work if they choose to? In what dream world? First of all, nobody would hire such a person. And if he or she was hired by an employer(a miracle), he or she would just get fired after a day if this person found a ride to work. So it's safe to say such people can't work. It can be proven actually. Find someone who has serious health problems to a point their body is dying(weak) and mental problems. Then try to make them work. Then watch and see them fail miserably. Watch them pass out or fuck things up or work too slow to be useful enough. Actually, a lot of people are truly disabled, mentally, physically or both. Nearly 1 out of 5 people in the USA are disabled. And that is disabled according to the government. There are a lot of people who are disabled, the government refuses to consider disabled so they don't have to give out more SSI benefits. So the truth is 2 out of 5 people are disabled in the USA, at least(not proven by the link below and I highly doubt I will be able to find proof of this I can show you due to obvious reasons). Take a look here and you will see the government telling you 1 out of 5 Americans are disabled. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/miscellaneous/cb12-134.html

I don't remember saying MOST people are truly disabled. If I did in a previous post, then I meant "a lot of" instead of "most". Obviously, if most people were disabled, the world would of collapsed already to the second dark ages. And you think just because your daughter can find 2 jobs in a one week period(good for her), everyone else can? You need to stop looking at the people in your circle and think everyone else is just as fortunate in this country. A lot of people are broken and weak. It seems you are just choosing to bury your head in the sand and ignore these people. I don't care if a lot people have stories similar to yours. Why? Because their stories will prove nothing to me other than some people are simply just fortunate when it comes to life. Even in the worst shit hole, there will always be people who are fortunate and people who are not. I mean, the warlords in Somalia are enjoying their lives. That doesn't mean the system is good and we should embrace it with loving arms. I don't care if the original government or the founding fathers intended things to be this way or that way. It was all a bunch of rich and wealthy people who cared only about the rich and wealthy, just like today. They didn't want a big government because rich and wealthy people don't need a big government. Such people with that kind of money, can take care of themselves.

Who says people will just stop working so they can reap benefits without working? Who says that will even be possible? You are just presenting worse case scenarios that will probably never happen. When did I say the government should help people who just don't want to work? Obviously that would be a bad thing because everything would just break down. And no, I don't believe in people laying around and doing nothing if people can do more. But I believe, who we are, what we can do and what we can't do is not out choice. Just like we didn't choose who our parents are and where we were born. Just like we don't get to choose when we die. If I can improve my life right now then I believe I should improve my life, not just lay around and do nothing. But if I can't then I can't. I believe, good things and bad things can happen to people and we are helpless against the good things and the bad things. And one day, life might teach you this lesson. That you are not in control like you think you are. We are slaves to almost everything... Considering how horrible it is to be homeless and poor and how little the government here helps people in need don't you think there would be less homeless people and people close to being homeless here if they had a CHOICE? Who would choose such a life, seriously? And it seems you don't know that you live in a country where the economy has turned to pure shit and jobs are very hard to find for most people. And it's getting worse, year after year. But you think, everyone can work if they truly want to. How? If they wish it hard enough, jobs can be created out of thin air? Sorry but I don't believe in that Peter Pan nonsense. I hope, one day all you conservatives wake up and join the 21st century. And then with those who are already awaken, help make this country a better place for everyone. Not just for those who are fortunate in this American nightmare.

You say the evidence just isn't there to back up what I'm saying? That is wrong because the evidence is all around you. Just go outside to where people aren't so well off and have a look around. Just look at all the poverty and homeless people, the suffering and death. But there is ZERO evidence in this world to back up your beliefs so it makes sense you didn't present me with any evidence.

Hmm.. when the entire WORLD shuts out its entire trade system to your specific country, you tend to have problems like mass starvation and human suffering.

Yep. All the capitalist countries basically made the USSR and similar countries fail for obvious reasons. It was a capitalist conspiracy basically. These countries didn't fail because socialism doesn't work. That is a load of bullshit. But of course, the USSR is actually a bad example of a good system because it was very oppressive and the KGB were just crazy. But socialism doesn't have to = USSR. Socialism doesn't mean torturing innocent people and treating people like our lives have no value like all these conservatives want us to believe. I find it so annoying that people point to a few bad apples and say, look, socialism is EVIL even though the evil they are pointing out has nothing to do with socialism. I also suspect, all the Red states in the USA are making it very difficult for people to get benefits so conservatives in power can say, "LOOK, socialism doesn't work!". I've heard a lot of horror stories of people trying to get benefits they need in Red states...

The USSR is a VERY bad example of socialism. Im not sure it was a capitalist conspiracy, but US and British troops DID aid the government that eventually collapsed, so that points to where their priorities were. Combine that with massive amounts of drought and famine AND the NKVD/KGB AND the "programs" that were invented... it was an experiment doomed to failure. Fortunately we've seen the likes of Cuba and China doing quite well for themselves, now that they have been allowed to incorporate SOME forms of capitalism and trade with capitalist states.

Yeah but pure socialism could work if capitalists don't sabotage it. But I believe the Nordic model is the way to go. The best of both worlds. But I'd definitely prefer pure socialism over what we have today in the USA because what we have right now throws too many people under the bus, literally and prevent Americans from having a real community. I thought US and British troops only helped the USSR during WW2?

The system that doesn't allow people to be greedy and charge you based on demand of pies(always high) and a desire for profit.

No, what allowed them to become a nuclear-backed superpower was their spy network. It had nothing to do with their economy, which dwindled over the years until it finally broke as all socialist systems inevitably do; it's like anorexia: A body can't feed off itself forever, it's eventually going to die if it attempts to. Wealth creation is a necessity.

Besides, America went through the great depression before WWII; are you going to say the reason they recovered was because of socialism?
So people starve due to communist rule, but it's all just a capitalist conspiracy and those suffering people didn't actually exist? Okay, I'm through with this topic. I'm leaving before I bang my head against they wall as you try to tell me the moon landing and the Holocaust were just capitalist conspiracies too...

What conspiracy? The capitalist countries basically refused to trade with the USSR entirely, constantly tried to prevent it from accessing foreign markets, and otherwise tried to hijack and sabotage their economy.

I don't think people from the US learn this stuff in their history courses. They hear "COMMUNISM BAD" and assume that everything to do with it is evil. It's inbred into their minds at a VERY young age. Trust me, I lived there on and off for a few years, in their school system. It's terrible how much history they just gloss over. The really intelligent Americans go and actually research these topics and read between the lines and propaganda.

It is amazing how many people here understand the social, political and economical state that encompass roughly 300 million American citizens, never mind actual opinions of those citizens. It is good they devote all the time and research to the subject beyond sensational headlines and news articles. I've lived in the US my whole life and I am still having a hard time generalizing millions based on our current politicians, fanatical radio hosts and poor reporting.

Anyway, I'm just glad, that here with a common passion for gaming, we have something good that has no borders and forms a great community. Topics like this really test that.

That is what I mean.

No one here is claiming to have all the answers and passions certainly do get inflamed to the point of ridiculousness sometimes.

It's fun though :D