monkeydelarge: Over population is a bitch and when when robots capable of doing what a human being can do start being made, most of us will be seriously screwed with the current system.
Brasas: You posted a lot of good points, so did paladin.
I'll focus on a couple I disagree with.
The fundamental moral disagreement I think I find when you said:
"So to say they are greedy because they are getting the benefits of society and then not paying society back is silly. There is a difference between not wanting to pay back society and not being able to." The problem we (I'm using plural as an assumption since paladin didn't focus on this) see is not about the want to pay versus ability to pay distinction. It's the benefits of society part. You are assuming a lot there.
The benefits of society are libraries, roads, etc... I doubt anyone is saying the poor and destitute should be excluded from that. Neither of those benefits are actual welfare though - they are benefits of society, as in we all benefit from them. Specific benefits such as welfare targetted at some people, that's a very different thing - those are not benefits of society, those are welfare benefits. Some of us see a moral problem in them, because of two big reasons:
1 - they are coerced out of A to give to B - we have no issue if they are voluntary.
2 - they are counterproductive since they actually disincentivize the welfare recipients to improve their situation - especially if the social stigma is also removed.
Then on an optimist note, I want to make an anti-luddite case. The opportunity is huge for another living standards radical improvement. If a lot of service desk jobs are automated, I expect a lot of supply for individualized consumer services to create demand. You would be amazed how far ahead the US is in regards to that compared to even Europe - having a chef cook your meals every single day, havign a personal entertainer, a personal trainer, a personal assistant, personal accountant, personal lawyer... If the price of labor really falls as much as I expect and hope due to robotics, there will be a huge demand boom that will allow masses of people to leverage their skills: cooking, singing, designing games, working out, reading law books, running spreadsheets... to make a decent living. I don't think that's so big of a utopian stretch. We see the beginnings of it already.
1. Sometimes people have to be coerced to care for their fellow countrymen to prevent suffering and death. In a perfect world, there would be no need for such coercion but a lot of people are too selfish and greedy in this world. The coercion is the lesser of two evils.
2. Whether welfare is counterproductive or not depends on each individual welfare recipient. You can't just say. everyone who receives welfare won't want to improve their situation. It's not like, everyone who receives welfare will join some kind of Borg collective.
And welfare is a benefit to all of society because when a lot of people are facing suffering and death, they turn to crime. And I don't think these people are bad people because being homeless is a hellish existence and nobody wants to die. In the USA, many people shop lift and then let themselves get caught so they can be put in jail so they don't freeze to death during winter. Most of the crime in the USA would go away if poor people and people with nothing stopped being treated like garbage. These victims of the current system also become full of rage and hatred. Rage and hatred against their fellow countrymen. If a lot of people in your society is angry and full of hate towards their fellow countrymen, then everyone will suffer. Rage and hatred is very contagious. It spreads and spreads until the environment is toxic for everyone And everyone except the rich and wealthy might fall without anyone to catch them some day and then not have to be subjected to suffering and death if there is welfare. It is foolish for someone to assume, their life will just keep getting better and better and nothing ever bad will happen to him or her. Do you think everyone who is homeless today, were always homeless or poor? One day, you could be making a decent amount of money, be 100% healthy mentally and physically, be enjoying life, be 100% independent and then one day, your whole world could be turned upside down(someone ruins your life, you get in a horrible accident, your bad genes reveal themselves with horrible health problems, you become an outcast, you become addicted to something etc). So all of you people who are well off, arguing against welfare and other benefits are really arguing against your own security unless you are well off in a rich or wealthy kind of way. :) And there are some cases of rich people losing everything too. I also find it kind of funny that a lot of these people who see socialism as evil, have no problem with enjoying social security, Medicare and other benefits like SSI offered to them when they are senior citizens. :) Ayn Rand was one of these people. The hypocrisy.