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General discussionI boycott GOG ... well because of (lost) principles(316 posts)(316 posts)
(316 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 02, 2015
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DanTheKraut: @Sarisio
I studied law there is no need to show me some old articles about games if you don't know how the laws in Germany actually work. It's like me telling something about russians and games which include homo erotic... I have no clue about the russian laws so I don't say anything about it.
So guess what? Our lawyers don't fully know our own law system either. Still specific elements in games will make them quickly banned (thankfully, most of our government are computer illiterate, though they wanted to ban Wikipedia and stuff like this).
Posted October 02, 2015
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Breja: Are you a graduate idiot with a idiocy diploma, or a self-taught one?
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tinyE: I was born stupid. :D
Lucky bastard. You don't need to be so smug about it! Some of us had to work hard for this, you know?
Posted October 02, 2015
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Breja: You do realise that just because the law against something is not enforceable does not make that thing legal, rigth?
The law regarding censorship is that it is illegal for Australian retailers to sell games which fail to get passed the censorship board, just as it is in Germany. I.e. the game cannot be physically sold. The laws do not apply to online transactions, even though they are being applied in this manner.
Posted October 02, 2015
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Tarnicus: The law regarding censorship is that it is illegal for Australian retailers to sell games which fail to get passed the censorship board, just as it is in Germany. I.e. the game cannot be physically sold. The laws do not apply to online transactions, even though they are being applied in this manner.
Apparently GOG's and/or the publishers legal departments disagree with you.
Posted October 02, 2015
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Breja: You do realise that just because the law against something is not enforceable does not make that thing legal, rigth?
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Tarnicus: The law regarding censorship is that it is illegal for Australian retailers to sell games which fail to get passed the censorship board, just as it is in Germany. I.e. the game cannot be physically sold. The laws do not apply to online transactions, even though they are being applied in this manner.
Again for Germany this is wrong...

this is the legal situation for Germany:
The games aren't banned in Germany at all. Some are indexed like Quake 2 or 3 and Spear of Destiny which means adults only (commercials and public selling only in places adults have access too any other store can sell those games too but you need to ask for them).
In fact there are 3 rated 18 ratings for games in Germany.
USK: KJ and unrated (which automatically means rated 18) - those games can be sold anywhere and also commercials aren't a problem.
Indexed - Commercials and public selling are restricted to places minors don't have access but any store can sell those games with the only exception that you have to ask for it.

Then there is also a difference between download titles and retail versions when it comes to laws.

Wolfenstein 3 and RTCW got seized by a court which means no commercials at all BUT import/buying and owning are still legal if you are an adult. Selling is a bit complicated in this matter but also not forbidden (Several court decisions regarding this also from the highest court here).

GOG or Steam are not affected by this because the JMStV (for download titles) and the JuSchG (for retail versions) only count inside Germany and for stores placed in Germany.

Fun fact:
If you think 3 rated 18 ratings for games is much... we got 8 rated 18 ratings for movies because we germans like to do things really complicated.

For Australia you are right not rated = banned.

And because you will not believe me a official source for Germany

Can I distribute an unrated or “indexed” title in Germany?
Yes, distributing games without a USK rating in Germany is in line with the existing statutory Regulations. Certain precautions have to be considered though: if your program clearly is a game (and no “infotainment” or “edutainment” program) then your title will be labeled as “unrated”, independent from the possible age classifications of other countries such as PEGI, ESRB, BBFC, CERO etc., and can therefore only to be sold to adults. If an allegedly gameplay-identical version received a USK rating at some point is negligible for this matter. Titles without USK rating are also endangered to be placed on the prohibited list (“Index”) by the Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons (BPjM).
If the respective title has been indexed by the BPjM, specific terms of sale apply These media must not be displayed, offered, announced or advertised publicly in places accessible for minors. While this general ban of advertising exists for these titles (in accordance with Article 6, Section 1, Clause 6 JMStV), the sale is also restricted to verifiably adult persons only.

http://www.usk.de/en/extramenue/login/publisher/start/publisher-faqs/

Who thought of the idea of age rating for computer games?
This was a political decision enshrined within the German Children and Young Persons Protection Act (JuSchG) in 2003 and providing a legal basis for the labelling of games. The consequence is that games may not be sold or supplied to children and young persons or presented on screens. Is this censorship?No, publishers submit their titles voluntarily. There is no reason why a computer game should not appear without a rating symbol. Adults are also free to decide what games they play and have legal access to unrated games and to games which have been placed on the index of media deemed unsuitable for children and young persons. For this reason, there can be no question of censorship in this regard. Censorship is in any case prohibited pursuant to Article 5 of German Basic Law.
Post edited October 02, 2015 by DanTheKraut
Posted October 02, 2015
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Sarisio: Old news, but so that you know.

Law is like a huge maze which leads nowhere. Don't think you know all about law, while in fact even lawyers aren't fully familiar with it.
Most aren't arguing against the law for Wolfenstein but for Quake II & III, since Harvester, Mortal Kombat 1+2+3, Alien vs. Predator, Saints Row 2 and Saints Row: The Third to name a few are on the indexed list that prohibits advertising and selling games to minors yet are still being sold to customers in Germany. The only exception to that now are Quake II and III where GOG completely adhered to the publisher's demand, the statement by GOG that "its against the law so they have to respect the publisher wishes" is false since games from other publishers on the indexed list are still being sold by GOG.

So The objectionable aspect is not that GOG isn't selling Quake Il and III to Germans but that they are regurgitating Bethesda's lie which implies that there was zero effort form GOG to even argue against it. No one expects GOG to refuse selling the games here but some atleast expected them to make some sort of case for selling the games in Germany like the other indexed games being sold here, perhaps that would have happened with the GOG of old (loss of which the OP is lamenting) but certainly no such effort is expected from them anymore since the sacrificing of their One world, One Price principle.
Post edited October 02, 2015 by stg83
Posted October 02, 2015
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Tarnicus: The law regarding censorship is that it is illegal for Australian retailers to sell games which fail to get passed the censorship board, just as it is in Germany. I.e. the game cannot be physically sold. The laws do not apply to online transactions, even though they are being applied in this manner.
They do apply and there are many examples of this, starting from mild things like ESRB ratings.to outright censorship. Stop bashing publishers and distributors, they are THE FIRST to lose on not selling the game.

If people are sooooooo smart, apply to Bethesda as lawyers if they truly think that they know the laws so good. They will be 100% accepted with very high salary if they are truly so good.
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stg83: Most aren't arguing against the law for Wolfenstein but for Quake II & III, since Harvester, Mortal Kombat 1+2+3, Alien vs. Predator, Saints Row 2 and Saints Row: The Third to name a few are on that indexed list yet are still being sold to customers in Germany. The only exception to that now are Quake II and III where GOG completely adhered to the publisher's demand, the statement by GOG that "its against the law so they have to respect the publisher wishes" is false since games from other publishers on the indexed list are still being sold by GOG.
I think there is no need to put so much attention to it, unless people really want those other games being pulled from german store as well...
Post edited October 02, 2015 by Sarisio
Posted October 02, 2015
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Tarnicus: their newest flagship game is cheaper for me to buy on Steam. The Steam versions of their games contains DRM and that is the publisher's choice. Too much hypocrisy for me to purchase on GOG in good conscience.
You're confusing GOG with CD Projekt RED. They have the same parent company, CD Projekt, but they are still different companies.
Posted October 02, 2015
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DanTheKraut: @Sarisio
I studied law there is no need to show me some old articles about games if you don't know how the laws in Germany actually work. It's like me telling something about russians and games which include homo erotic... I have no clue about the russian laws so I don't say anything about it.
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Sarisio: So guess what? Our lawyers don't fully know our own law system either. Still specific elements in games will make them quickly banned (thankfully, most of our government are computer illiterate, though they wanted to ban Wikipedia and stuff like this).
I quoted two official sources which showed that I'am right so what is better than a official source? A court decision? No problem if you want I have a few regarding this matter of course in german so you would need to translate them yourself.

Here you have them again

Can I distribute an unrated or “indexed” title in Germany?
Yes, distributing games without a USK rating in Germany is in line with the existing statutory Regulations. Certain precautions have to be considered though: if your program clearly is a game (and no “infotainment” or “edutainment” program) then your title will be labeled as “unrated”, independent from the possible age classifications of other countries such as PEGI, ESRB, BBFC, CERO etc., and can therefore only to be sold to adults. If an allegedly gameplay-identical version received a USK rating at some point is negligible for this matter. Titles without USK rating are also endangered to be placed on the prohibited list (“Index”) by the Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons (BPjM).
If the respective title has been indexed by the BPjM, specific terms of sale apply These media must not be displayed, offered, announced or advertised publicly in places accessible for minors. While this general ban of advertising exists for these titles (in accordance with Article 6, Section 1, Clause 6 JMStV), the sale is also restricted to verifiably adult persons only.

Who thought of the idea of age rating for computer games?
This was a political decision enshrined within the German Children and Young Persons Protection Act (JuSchG) in 2003 and providing a legal basis for the labelling of games. The consequence is that games may not be sold or supplied to children and young persons or presented on screens. Is this censorship?No, publishers submit their titles voluntarily. There is no reason why a computer game should not appear without a rating symbol. Adults are also free to decide what games they play and have legal access to unrated games and to games which have been placed on the index of media deemed unsuitable for children and young persons. For this reason, there can be no question of censorship in this regard. Censorship is in any case prohibited pursuant to Article 5 of German Basic Law.

http://www.usk.de/en/extramenue/login/publisher/start/publisher-faqs/
Want also a source that the german youth protection law doesn't affect GOG?
Post edited October 02, 2015 by DanTheKraut
Posted October 02, 2015
I find it equally important that Dan has a law degree as I did that what's his name owns 10 shares of Microsoft. :)
Posted October 02, 2015
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DanTheKraut: I quoted two official sources which showed that I'am right so what is better than a official source? A court decision? No problem if you want want I have a few regarding this of course in german so you would need to translate them.
Write Bethesda that they need to make those games available in Germany and tell them that you'll be able to prove your point in real court if needed. They'll listen to you and will consider your offer, because they are the 1st one who lose on sales. I am sure they will even compensate your efforts by money. I am just afraid you are far from being even sub-mediocre lawyer, and so your offer will most likely be declined. You can always try to prove that I and others are wrong by actually doing something instead of trying to show yourself as 1st class lawyer.
Post edited October 02, 2015 by Sarisio
Posted October 02, 2015
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budejovice: I find it equally important that Dan has a law degree as I did that what's his name owns 10 shares of Microsoft. :)
To be exact it's economics and law together. Law was part of my studies besides economics and business administration. I know how to read paragraphs and even more important to understand them. I'am not working as a lawyer and even people who only studied law automatically work as lawyers in Germany.

I have official sources for all my arguments regarding this so I can always proof my point and proof others wrong if necessary but it is kinda funny that people still ignoring official sources.

I mean look at Sarisio I proofed he is wrong now he is salty and trying to personally attack me which is funny. He is also ignoring the sources I posted which means any further discussion with him is a waste of my time.

Anyway in a few hours everyone should have calm down.
Post edited October 02, 2015 by DanTheKraut
Posted October 02, 2015
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tinyE: There are too many people in here taking life WAAAAAAAAAAY too seriously! XD
This can be said for like 99% of GOG forum users on any given day. :P

---

Anyway I know nothing about German law, but ChrisTX4 posted this on the GOG reddit sub, figured I'd share it. Not sure about it's accuracy, but seems legit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gog/comments/3n40iz/release_quake_ii_iii_wolfenstein_3d_return_to/cvl6hvh
Post edited October 02, 2015 by BKGaming
Posted October 02, 2015
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john_hatcher: Snip
Ever thought of doing something to the Government the majority of your people voted for?

Or it is too hard, so you find it easier to take it out on GoG.

Well, then you would be surprise using VPN would be easier to solve the problem, unless your overriding motive is not solving the problem.
Posted October 02, 2015
Seems like quite a few trolls in this thread. Sorry to hear about your dilemma. I hope you find a suitable alternative to GOG. I personally wouldn't buy a game from here if it has any form of DRM. If I wanted to do that, I would just buy games off Steam.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionI boycott GOG ... well because of (lost) principles(316 posts)(316 posts)
(316 posts)