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General discussionHypothetically, would you count this as DRM?(42 posts)(42 posts)
(42 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 23, 2021
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dtgreene: There've been some discussions about DRM recently (in particular with the new Hitman release), and it inevitably comes up that people disagree with what is DRM and what isn't.

So, I have a hypothetical situation to look at, and the question is, do you consider it to be DRM?

* At boot, the game checks for an internet connection. If there's no internet connection, the game refuses to start.
* Periodically, the game does an internet connection check again. If that fails, the player is kicked out of the game, without giving the player a chance to save progress.
* The game is entirely single player, so there isn't any technical need for the internet coonection.
* The game doesn't actually do anything with the internet connection other than make sure it's present. In particular, the game doesn't actually check to make sure the copy of the game is legal (so copying the game files, without modification, will allow the game to be played on another system, provided that system has an internet connection). There's also no account system or login, and all save data is stored locally.

Now, I assume that everyone would agree that the internet connection requirement for this game is unnecessary, and getting kicked out because of a loss of internet could be extremely annoying (to the point of being potentially rage-inducing), but would you consider this to be DRM?
Anything that stops you from enjoy the full content of something is DRM. Especially something that is put behind a verification server. PERIOD.
Posted September 23, 2021
Yes, absolutely. Online requirement with mandatory data collection is a DRM.
Posted September 23, 2021
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dtgreene: Now, I assume that everyone would agree that the internet connection requirement for this game is unnecessary, and getting kicked out because of a loss of internet could be extremely annoying (to the point of being potentially rage-inducing), but would you consider this to be DRM?
I would consider this question ungenuine, as you can't "simply check" internet connection. The game must check the connection to a specific server and if that server goes down (but the internet is still working) you will lose the opportunity to play this game too.

In your previous comments on this forum, you've shown you're tech-savvy so, I wonder why would you ask like that?
Posted September 23, 2021
low rated
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dtgreene: The point of this question is to try and get people to think about the nature of DRM, what counts as DRM, and what doesn't.
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StingingVelvet: Yes but I don't think your example has merit. There is no generic internet check, like there would be a disc check. It's not a thing that exists. You need to contact a server, even when you search Google or whatever that's what you are doing.
It could try pinging 1.1.1.1 and 8.8.8.8 as well as doing a DNS lookup of example.com

If all of those fail, than the program refuses to start.

Just an example of how this could work.

Alternatively, it could do the same sort of check that browsers do before they display the "No Internet" message.

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trynoval: Yes, absolutely. Online requirement with mandatory data collection is a DRM.
Except that this example doesn't do data collection; all it does is check to make sure the computer is online.
Post edited September 23, 2021 by dtgreene
Posted September 23, 2021
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StingingVelvet: Yes but I don't think your example has merit. There is no generic internet check, like there would be a disc check. It's not a thing that exists. You need to contact a server, even when you search Google or whatever that's what you are doing.
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dtgreene: It could try pinging 1.1.1.1 and 8.8.8.8 as well as doing a DNS lookup of example.com

If all of those fail, than the program refuses to start.

Just an example of how this could work.

Alternatively, it could do the same sort of check that browsers do before they display the "No Internet" message.

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trynoval: Yes, absolutely. Online requirement with mandatory data collection is a DRM.
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dtgreene: Except that this example doesn't do data collection; all it does is check to make sure the computer is online.
Why would you even do that?

I think games like any applications should not do any not necessary stuff, if they do I don't use them, that's even before the drm free principles for games.
I am making a small games for fun as a hobby and I don't need to ask for a connection for my single player game, I only try to connect to Google drive, Dropbox, one drive or mega to upload /download the save file if the user ask for it (that's part of my save in the cloud without a client system) if there is no connection of course the save in the cloud system cannot work but the user should know that, that's why if the user try to push the button to save in the cloud and my game cannot connect I show an error for the upload /download the game from/to the cloud. I don't really need to check the connection even then... Why would I even do that, even if the connection work the connection to Google drive, Dropbox, one drive, mega can fail for any reason and of course my single player game should continue to work even without the optional save in your own cloud feature.

Of course hitman don't just check for an internet connection so that's pure drm. But I think it's drm even if it would just check for internet by ping to 8.8.8.8 and kick you out from the game if it cannot do that. This last part is annoying and that's the main reason people care about drm free here on gog. And for backup reason of course.

If drm would not require an internet connection and /or a client and or some other strange stuff that you would not usually require nobody would even ask "is there a better way?" and nobody would find gog.
Posted September 23, 2021
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LiefLayer: I think games like any applications should not do any not necessary stuff, if they do I don't use them, that's even before the drm free principles for games.
You'd be surprised about how much software does unnecessary stuff.

For example, the program screen can actually be used to access a serial port, even though it doesn't seem like the sort of thing one would expect. (tmux, a similar program, does not have this feature.)

Or, for that matter, OpenSSL supports the TLS Heartbeat protocol extension, which allows for arbitrary data to be requested to make sure that the other end of the connection is still alive, and if the target system has a certain version of OpenSSL, this can be used to trick the program into sending other data in memory (like username/password combos) to the attacker.

I could also mention that the original Final Fantasy checks to make sure that you have the Crown before you enter the Castle of Ordeals, except that there's no way (barring arbitrary code execution, which is clearly not intended by the developers) to actually get to that point in the game. Or, Final Fantasy 2's Killer Bow, which isn't actually obtainable (and in later remakes the the game says that you either found a bug or are a hacker (with l33t speak) if you do somehow manage to obtain it).
Posted September 23, 2021
whats the point of this topic?:O
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tag+: Really?... playing the devil's advocate with lame ,,situations,,?
Why don't you take the bull by the horns and approach any of the real case scenarios and express your own point of view?
Some really like to get lost from reality theorizing the most meaningless cases but considering themselves ,,so smart,,...
But hey! Thanks for the session doc and let me know when you decide to have a serious talk...
agree this topic is pointless, another look at me topic...
Post edited September 23, 2021 by Orkhepaj
Posted September 23, 2021
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dtgreene: * At boot, the game checks for an internet connection. If there's no internet connection, the game refuses to start.
* Periodically, the game does an internet connection check again. If that fails, the player is kicked out of the game, without giving the player a chance to save progress.
* The game is entirely single player, so there isn't any technical need for the internet coonection.
* The game doesn't actually do anything with the internet connection other than make sure it's present. In particular, the game doesn't actually check to make sure the copy of the game is legal (so copying the game files, without modification, will allow the game to be played on another system, provided that system has an internet connection). There's also no account system or login, and all save data is stored locally.
Lol, maybe it should require me to send in a urine sample to the dev and/or publisher as well!
Posted September 23, 2021
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dtgreene: * At boot, the game checks for an internet connection. If there's no internet connection, the game refuses to start.
And/or requires steam to be active and/or what it thinks is a valid certificate. Otherwise it's the same.
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dtgreene: * Periodically, the game does an internet connection check again. If that fails, the player is kicked out of the game, without giving the player a chance to save progress.
SimCity 2013
Also Diablo 3.... Lag in a single-player game...
Or StarCraft 2, can't save....
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dtgreene: * The game is entirely single player, so there isn't any technical need for the internet coonection.
Simcity 2013
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dtgreene: * The game doesn't actually do anything with the internet connection other than make sure it's present. In particular, the game doesn't actually check to make sure the copy of the game is legal (so copying the game files, without modification, will allow the game to be played on another system, provided that system has an internet connection). There's also no account system or login, and all save data is stored locally.

Now, I assume that everyone would agree that the internet connection requirement for this game is unnecessary, and getting kicked out because of a loss of internet could be extremely annoying (to the point of being potentially rage-inducing), but would you consider this to be DRM?
So... says 'ping yahoo, and if there's a reply it's good'? I would call it terrible DRM which you can get around by modifying your hostfile... so.... at first yes, but as it's worked around no?
Posted September 23, 2021
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dtgreene: Alternatively, it could do the same sort of check that browsers do before they display the "No Internet" message.
I'm just saying what would be the point of that? Like it would not be a rational thing for any company to do. I get you're making a hypothetical comparison to disc checks or something, but it's just so illogical it doesn't work.
Posted September 23, 2021
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dtgreene: * At boot, the game checks for an internet connection. If there's no internet connection, the game refuses to start.
* Periodically, the game does an internet connection check again. If that fails, the player is kicked out of the game, without giving the player a chance to save progress.
* The game is entirely single player, so there isn't any technical need for the internet coonection.
* The game doesn't actually do anything with the internet connection other than make sure it's present. In particular, the game doesn't actually check to make sure the copy of the game is legal (so copying the game files, without modification, will allow the game to be played on another system, provided that system has an internet connection). There's also no account system or login, and all save data is stored locally.
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fronzelneekburm: Lol, maybe it should require me to send in a urine sample to the dev and/or publisher as well!
wait for it , it is a possibility , just look at what china is doing + add in a little western idiocracy and this isn't so far-fetched anymore
Posted September 23, 2021
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Incidentally, this topic has reminded me of a topic I made a long time ago, but at least in that other topic, there was a legitimate reason for the connection:
* This other game was written by a Chinese company.
* No internet connection is required to play said game in Chinese.
* If played in another language, any time the game needs to display text, it would send a request to Google Translate, and display whatever Google Translate returns.

So, that game arguably has a legitimate non-DRM reason for requiring an internet connection, but it still feels rather unnecessary and inefficient.
Posted September 23, 2021
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trynoval: Yes, absolutely. Online requirement with mandatory data collection is a DRM.
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dtgreene: Except that this example doesn't do data collection; all it does is check to make sure the computer is online.
There is always a practical purpose to have an internet connection.

So it'll be a DRM, yes.
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dtgreene: Incidentally, this topic has reminded me of a topic I made a long time ago, but at least in that other topic, there was a legitimate reason for the connection:
* This other game was written by a Chinese company.
* No internet connection is required to play said game in Chinese.
* If played in another language, any time the game needs to display text, it would send a request to Google Translate, and display whatever Google Translate returns.

So, that game arguably has a legitimate non-DRM reason for requiring an internet connection, but it still feels rather unnecessary and inefficient.
No, that's won't be a legitimate reason. Because you should translate the text once and bundle it into the game.
Post edited September 23, 2021 by trynoval
Posted September 23, 2021
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pkk234: Yes.
This
Posted September 23, 2021
If it’s not controlled by me then it’s drm, or whatever you want to call it, drm, online gating, online this, online that.
In the same way, if I buy a car, I don’t want to have to go to the store each day to pick it up, or have someone open the lock, or have someone watch me as I drive it, or have to sign up to online sites in order to use the indicators, or have to have software running on my phone in order for the engine to keep running, or any other idiotic method that companies spend millions each year trying to come up with ways of removing control from users and putting it in their court.
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionHypothetically, would you count this as DRM?(42 posts)(42 posts)
(42 posts)