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Klumpen0815: I've never bought anything that is tied to online DRM either apart from Unreal Tournament 3, because I just couldn't find anything about online DRM in reviews about this one at the time...
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ET3D: Far as I remember UT3 allows offline play without registering anywhere and even the Steam version doesn't require Steam to run. So DRM-free far as I know.
If this is the case now, then it has come with a later patch since the authentication service went down some time ago, rendering the game unplayable. I don't know about such a patch and will look out for it.
Post edited December 29, 2015 by Klumpen0815
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ET3D: Or they got over it, which is human nature, and a healthy trait.
Depends on the situation, really.

Rather easy example:

- Someone calls you a retard and slaps you in the face, but only once (Most people would be pissed, but usually get over it rather fast)

- Same as above, but that person does it on a daily base, whenever you meet. and laugh you in the face afterwards.

That's DRM in a nutshell, a slap in the face for the honest customer, followed by a mocking laughter of the publisher, who knows you're fine with being treated like an idiot.

Makes me wonder if those "who supposedly got over it" also suffer from battered wife syndrome...

And frankly, if someone is willing to throw their expectations / standards away so easily, then they really shouldn't be surprised if publishers / devs / resellers will pull more and more crap on them, given the fact they remain silent and accept it anyways.

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ET3D: Not at all easy. Can you give me examples of this?
Well, not all customers turn into pirates... but as people say "temptation makes thieves", and when legit customers end up having to resort to less legit tools (doubt we can / are allowed to discuss Cr*cks here), it's just takes them to go one step further to become actual pirates and get the whole game next time, but without paying.

And using the example above, some would just do it to one-up the Devs / Publisher who screwed them over in the past, as with DRM, neither can they resell, nor for the longest time even get a refund if the game refused to work / was a buggy piece of shite (only actually changed because Steam would have been at risk of being unable to sell in the EU, hadn't they given in on the refund question, certainly not a move of generosity / customer friendlyness)

Also, a lot of games seem to run smoother and less buggy once cr*ck*d, based on what most people who openly admit to it say, regardless on whether the game was bought legitly or not... so at the end of the day, to add insult to injury, not only did pirates get the game for free, but with the removal of DRM, also often have the superior version. Not really something that does inspire customer confidence, and even less making people want to actually put money on the table for the product.

Edit: Spelling
Post edited December 29, 2015 by Habanerose
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Habanerose: That's DRM in a nutshell, a slap in the face for the honest customer, followed by a mocking laughter of the publisher, who knows you're fine with being treated like an idiot.
Not really. DRM mostly doesn't bother people. You can remember that one case, but that's most likely because it was unique. You probably ran a lot of games with DRM where you had no problem. That's what usually happens with DRM, unless it's very heavy-handed. Steam works for most people most of the time. Sure, sometimes it doesn't, but that's like someone mistakenly bumping into you on occasion rather than a daily slap.

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Habanerose: Well, not all customers turn into pirates... but as people say "temptation makes thieves", and when legit customers end up having to resort to less legit tools (doubt we can / are allowed to discuss Cr*cks here), it's just takes them to go one step further to become actual pirates and get the whole game next time, but without paying.
That's the kind of stupid speculation that brings DRM in the first place (although that argument is a little less in the air than your own speculation). All this "people might do this and that" that's backed by nothing is really stupid.
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ET3D: Not really. DRM mostly doesn't bother people.
Got slapped by DRM for 5 solid full months. It can't be just an occasional bump as you say, but a daily slap like he says. DRM BOTHERS people, its just waiting to find a blind spot to do just that for any legit customer.

If DRM wasn't slapping me left and right, I wouldn't be on GOG, simple. Or my presence on GOG would be much more limited than now.
Post edited December 29, 2015 by PookaMustard
I boycott anything with drm, so yes.
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PookaMustard: Got slapped by DRM for 5 solid full months. It can't be just an occasional bump as you say, but a daily slap like he says. DRM BOTHERS people, its just waiting to find a blind spot to do just that for any legit customer.
How? If that was 'no internet connection' coupled with online DRM, then I can understand it.

The point is, it's minority cases. For most people DRM problems are rare, that's why they have no problem with DRM. If you're the guy the bully at school hits daily, then I can understand wanting to move away.
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ET3D: How? If that was 'no internet connection' coupled with online DRM, then I can understand it.

The point is, it's minority cases. For most people DRM problems are rare, that's why they have no problem with DRM. If you're the guy the bully at school hits daily, then I can understand wanting to move away.
That is the problem. We're looked as some sort of 'crazy' by those who seem to think that DRM is good (Ha! Reminds me of many a movie). Apparently the only way they'll believe that DRM is bad is by experiencing it in action. If I had to metaphorize it, its not a bully but a serial murderer who plans his every hit carefully, and without doing a mass murder. Apparently he's also the same person many love. That's what happened to me, but this time with Steam, Origin and Uplay in one fell swoop. It is indeed 'no internet connection' + online DRM. None of my bought DRM games would work, nor even future purchases of DRM games would (thankfully I didn't do such purchases).

No matter what the blind majority sees of DRM, it is still objectively bad, and a bother.
Post edited December 29, 2015 by PookaMustard
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PookaMustard: If I had to metaphorize it, its not a bully but a serial murderer who plans his every hit carefully, and without doing a mass murder.
That would be a terrible exaggeration, though. It's more like a parent who for no apparent reason decides to take away his kid's toys.

I guess we could continue with silly analogies for a while. Anyway, I agree, DRM is a bad thing, but it's a really minor bad thing in the scheme of things.
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ET3D: I guess we could continue with silly analogies for a while. Anyway, I agree, DRM is a bad thing, but it's a really minor bad thing in the scheme of things.
Or that's right. I forgot that DRM could also act as something alike virtual babysitters, except, they are employed by corporations to only let you play if you aren't naughty... despise me only paying for the game content in question!

The bad thing we have here is customers buying into the DRM business no problem. Game publishers take advantage of this and thus, impose it on the market, getting away with it. Which is the biggest problem I think.
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ET3D: Not really. DRM mostly doesn't bother people. You can remember that one case, but that's most likely because it was unique. You probably ran a lot of games with DRM where you had no problem. That's what usually happens with DRM, unless it's very heavy-handed. Steam works for most people most of the time. Sure, sometimes it doesn't, but that's like someone mistakenly bumping into you on occasion rather than a daily slap.
Well, maybe the big reason why most people in human history didn't care about the punishment for homosexuals may be, that it didn't affect most people. The moment people are affected personally, they suddenly care but then it's usually too late for them to care.
What I want to say is: Even people that have a constant and stable internet connection and a BluRay player as well as a disc drive in their PC that is compatible with all current forms of DRM, they should still oppose it, because it's bad and affects other people, maybe even themselves or someone they know someday (although this shouldn't be the point). People should really start to think about what they are supporting with their money and this applies to many topics (slave labour, animal rights, environmental problems, anonymity, digital freedom etc...).
Post edited December 29, 2015 by Klumpen0815
I abandoned my Steam Account years ago. I used to be very vocal about warding people away from Steam until they correct their behavior.

They are anti competitive and anti consumer. They are a plague on the industry by leading the industry and helping to disrupt how economics functions. Not only are they engaged in questionably unlawful activities, they are indirectly encouraging other companies that work directly with them to engage in questionably unlawful activities. (for example Humble Bundle & IGSs "subscription" services)

I not only do not use steam, as a side effect of using steam alternatives like Humble, Groupees, Shiny loot, ect, many steam keys area also generated in purchases that cannot be avoided. Of those I will not pass those keys on to others.

I could go into pages upon pages of detail about how I resist Steams impact on the industry as well as get into the massive amounts of problems steam either creates or facilitates. However It is a countless volume book I have rewritten multiple times in several locations and not only do I lack the energy to do it again, typically people simply do not want to hear the inconvenient truth of it all.

So from here I will just affirm I DO actually boycott Steam as well as games "produced" by valve. I do so not because there is really no actual need to use steam, Nor for my own personal benefit of which there is very little if any. I do so not for myself. I do so, for the Good Of Gaming, where ever that good is still able to exist.
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Klumpen0815: they should still oppose it, because it's bad and affects other people
True, but if people think of bad things in the world to oppose, DRM should be way down on the list. Certainly in these days where countries define broadband as a right, having something that depends on it isn't that terrible. And in any case losing access to games is hardly comparable to most of the other topics you mention.
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ET3D: Not really. DRM mostly doesn't bother people. You can remember that one case, but that's most likely because it was unique. You probably ran a lot of games with DRM where you had no problem. That's what usually happens with DRM, unless it's very heavy-handed. Steam works for most people most of the time. Sure, sometimes it doesn't, but that's like someone mistakenly bumping into you on occasion rather than a daily slap.
That wasn't the sole case, but the worst one... Also, if DRM wouldn't bother anyone, I honestly doubt there would be much of a market for DRM-Free Stores, and by extension, GOG.

Also, lots of people who don't care about DRM are usually less tech-savvy, since they don't realize it's possible side-effects, unless they get hit straight in the face by them.

And yes, Steam might not be the worst DRM and work most of the time, but frankly speaking, DRM is and will never be something good for the customer. And while it works "now", you have to remember all the games tied to DRM that became unplayble once either the online service got terminated or the very code of the DRM itself became unusable due to newer OSes / outdated coding.

And while Steam shows no signs of disappearing anytime soon, the very case that games can simply be removed from your library after you paid hard-earned cash is not something very pleasant to think about (and while the same might happen to GOG, you caould still play your games if you backed them up, as they aren't tied to an unnecessary DRM service that might prevent you from it).

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ET3D: That's the kind of stupid speculation that brings DRM in the first place (although that argument is a little less in the air than your own speculation). All this "people might do this and that" that's backed by nothing is really stupid.
Neither stupid, nor specalution. What do you expect people to do when they paid for a game but can't play it due to DRM... Reselling? Nope, it's digital. Refund? Wasn't an option for years, and even now it's rather hard to even get a single refund. What's left? Not so legal means or being a "good lil' bitch and even saying thanks for getting screwed over".

Problem is, people blindly listening to the same old "it prevents piracy" lie are just further encouraging such behavior, instead of fixing things (or merely improving them).

Just think of it this way: "Some people pirate game X because they hate DRM", Publisher replies "More DRM to reduce piracy"... you really believe it's gonna change anything for the better? Doubt it, as it will ultimatively just piss off more people, some of which didn't even mind before, as DRM will just get more intrusive (and at the end, pirates still have the final laugh, while the honest customer gets the stick).

And while that's not the sole reason for which people pirate games, it's ironically one of the easiest to fight against, but rather than seeing their own mistake and fixing it, Publishers are pushing into the wrong direction and just digging themselves deeper into the hole.

And frankly, DRM or not, most games just tend to become avaible to pirates in less than 24 hrs after release anyways... so rather than wasting money fighting the inevitable (as there will always be people who will want things for free), publishers should rather wisen up and focus on pleasing the honest customers, rather than putting more of them off with always more intrusive DRM, which will inevitably happen seeing how things are heading...
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Klumpen0815: they should still oppose it, because it's bad and affects other people
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ET3D: True, but if people think of bad things in the world to oppose, DRM should be way down on the list. Certainly in these days where countries define broadband as a right, having something that depends on it isn't that terrible. And in any case losing access to games is hardly comparable to most of the other topics you mention.
Doing the right thing is never wrong and should be a habit regardless of topic.
I would never boycott Steam as they have the largest game library and gaming community.

Use it mostly for looking up at review, patch notes, and triple a titles.