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albinistic: I am still confused about the owning part here friends. In 2.1 of the User agreement, it states, "We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content." They do say that they let you store the game in case GOG will shit down in the future, but it does not say you own what you buy. It says own and get access to a license, please explain to me if I misunderstood what you said.
GoG treats its customers a little better than Steam, but you are right that you don't actually own anything you buy from either store. So when people say "own" they're really meaning that it cannot be taken away from you by some external entity for reasons as stupid as that entity shut down the servers handling the DRM validation (like Games for Windows Live.) So, in a sense, the people who pirated GfWL games weren't affected as much as the people who legitimately paid for them.

People are used to "ownership" meaning so little these days that it's actually sunk to the point where just being able to use what you paid for several years in the future is slowly being lost. I think the argument can easily be made that the consumer of Apple products doesn't actually own anything, it's Apple that owns the product and they get to send updates out to brick old phones so you buy a new phone. Planned Obsolescence, it used to simply mean that parts were designed to wear out.... now even printer cartridges can come with an "expire date" and just refuse to work after that.
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AB2012: This has been done to death over and over, but the truth is they are actually worded differently in legal terms:-

Steam Subcriber Agreement - You are a "subscriber" to the client for which any "subscription" (game) bought through it is an indirect privilege. You never actually agree to own or use any "subscription" (game) directly outside of that client even if you can get some of them to run like that ("the rights to access and/or use any Content and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions.") In short, if you ever lose access to / disagree with future EULA changes required to use the client, you lose your legal rights to all your "subscriptions" even without any game being revoked by the licenser / publisher.

GOG User Agreement - You do actually own GOG "content" directly (required for continued usage of offline installers post-GOG). This is literally spelled out in Section 17.3. (Fun fact - "subscriber" and "subscription" appear 144x times in the Steam "subscriber" agreement, and 0x times in GOG's User Agreement - "your content" is used instead and the legal right to use isn't gated behind Galaxy in any similar way).

tl:dr - They may both involve "licensed" games but GOG's "content" (offline installers at least) are actually directly purchased and owned by you whilst Steam's "subscriptions" are granted as a secondary privilege of continued use of the Steam client. This is how they are legally worded in both of their EULA's and obviously has different implications for having a legal right to your content in the event the stores close / you don't' want to use a client as a completely separate issue to the individual publisher of the game revoking anything.
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albinistic:
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Gudadantza: I do not see it about tribalism or store guettos. At least me. I do not consider one better of worse as an absolute. I have my preferences, obviouslly, and can say what is better for me. It is just a debate created about what do contractually each store offers, and it is fine make it clear.

-Originally Steam is a pseudorenting platform. A "subscription service" in their own words as a defense strategy.
-GOG EULA says different things and you legally own the digital game.

Store wars aside It is the most important. This is, Just let people know what they use to make good decissions based in its own criteria.
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albinistic: I am still confused about the owning part here friends. In 2.1 of the User agreement, it states, "We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content." They do say that they let you store the game in case GOG will shit down in the future, but it does not say you own what you buy. It says own and get access to a license, please explain to me if I misunderstood what you said.
That's the way things works in digital software, you own what can be owned digitally, if it is the case. it is not a physical thing. It is a license agreement. But even in the past your boxed copy ownership rights were at the end a license with terms of use (rights and limitations). The terms of use of this license can be different depending the store.

I see it like:

A license agreement and an installer
A license agreement and a Big box, and a CD with an installer inside

EDIT: And this different than Steam, as an example, It does not offer the same terms. But if you consider the same, well, yourself.
We can relativize the terms of service or EULA or so and be happy considering it the same. We can relativize laws. We can relativize everything :)

greetings
Post edited May 30, 2021 by Gudadantza
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AB2012: This has been done to death over and over, but the truth is they are actually worded differently in legal terms:-

Steam Subcriber Agreement - You are a "subscriber" to the client for which any "subscription" (game) bought through it is an indirect privilege. You never actually agree to own or use any "subscription" (game) directly outside of that client even if you can get some of them to run like that ("the rights to access and/or use any Content and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions.") In short, if you ever lose access to / disagree with future EULA changes required to use the client, you lose your legal rights to all your "subscriptions" even without any game being revoked by the licenser / publisher.

GOG User Agreement - You do actually own GOG "content" directly (required for continued usage of offline installers post-GOG). This is literally spelled out in Section 17.3. (Fun fact - "subscriber" and "subscription" appear 144x times in the Steam "subscriber" agreement, and 0x times in GOG's User Agreement - "your content" is used instead and the legal right to use isn't gated behind Galaxy in any similar way).

tl:dr - They may both involve "licensed" games but GOG's "content" (offline installers at least) are actually directly purchased and owned by you whilst Steam's "subscriptions" are granted as a secondary privilege of continued use of the Steam client. This is how they are legally worded in both of their EULA's and obviously has different implications for having a legal right to your content in the event the stores close / you don't' want to use a client as a completely separate issue to the individual publisher of the game revoking anything.
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albinistic:
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Gudadantza: I do not see it about tribalism or store guettos. At least me. I do not consider one better of worse as an absolute. I have my preferences, obviouslly, and can say what is better for me. It is just a debate created about what do contractually each store offers, and it is fine make it clear.

-Originally Steam is a pseudorenting platform. A "subscription service" in their own words as a defense strategy.
-GOG EULA says different things and you legally own the digital game.

Store wars aside It is the most important. This is, Just let people know what they use to make good decissions based in its own criteria.
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albinistic: I am still confused about the owning part here friends. In 2.1 of the User agreement, it states, "We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content." They do say that they let you store the game in case GOG will shit down in the future, but it does not say you own what you buy. It says own and get access to a license, please explain to me if I misunderstood what you said.
I think the difference is that GOG sells you the permanent license to use the game and Steam only sells you the privilege to use the game within the context of their subscription service / client (which you will depend upon, that is, you will not be able to play the games if you don't agree to an arbitrary change of the Steam EULA for instance). Of course GOG cannot just "sell you the game" as in selling you the intellectual property rights, because that would mean they couldn't sell it anymore after selling it once, as the purchaser would have that exclusive copyright.
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albinistic: I am still confused about the owning part here friends. In 2.1 of the User agreement, it states, "We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content." They do say that they let you store the game in case GOG will shit down in the future, but it does not say you own what you buy. It says own and get access to a license, please explain to me if I misunderstood what you said.
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haidynn: GoG treats its customers a little better than Steam, but you are right that you don't actually own anything you buy from either store. So when people say "own" they're really meaning that it cannot be taken away from you by some external entity for reasons as stupid as that entity shut down the servers handling the DRM validation (like Games for Windows Live.) So, in a sense, the people who pirated GfWL games weren't affected as much as the people who legitimately paid for them.

People are used to "ownership" meaning so little these days that it's actually sunk to the point where just being able to use what you paid for several years in the future is slowly being lost. I think the argument can easily be made that the consumer of Apple products doesn't actually own anything, it's Apple that owns the product and they get to send updates out to brick old phones so you buy a new phone. Planned Obsolescence, it used to simply mean that parts were designed to wear out.... now even printer cartridges can come with an "expire date" and just refuse to work after that.
Yeah, the newer iphones cannot be repaired by yourself or others since the parts inside are somehow synced to their servers or phone some. If you change the parts by yourself, even if its brand new, it starts to glitch and not work properly.
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albinistic: I am still confused about the owning part here friends. In 2.1 of the User agreement, it states, "We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content." They do say that they let you store the game in case GOG will shit down in the future, but it does not say you own what you buy. It says own and get access to a license, please explain to me if I misunderstood what you said.
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Gudadantza: That's the way things works in digital software, you own what can be owned digitally, if it is the case. it is not a physical thing. It is a license agreement. But even in the past your boxed copy ownership rights were at the end a license with terms of use (rights and limitations). The terms of use of this license can be different depending the store.

I see it like:

A license agreement and an installer
A license agreement and a Big box, and a CD with an installer inside

EDIT: And this different than Steam, as an example, It does not offer the same terms. But if you consider the same, well, yourself.
We can relativize the terms of service or EULA or so and be happy considering it the same. We can relativize laws. We can relativize everything :)

greetings
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albinistic: I am still confused about the owning part here friends. In 2.1 of the User agreement, it states, "We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content." They do say that they let you store the game in case GOG will shit down in the future, but it does not say you own what you buy. It says own and get access to a license, please explain to me if I misunderstood what you said.
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InSaintMonoxide: I think the difference is that GOG sells you the permanent license to use the game and Steam only sells you the privilege to use the game within the context of their subscription service / client (which you will depend upon, that is, you will not be able to play the games if you don't agree to an arbitrary change of the Steam EULA for instance). Of course GOG cannot just "sell you the game" as in selling you the intellectual property rights, because that would mean they couldn't sell it anymore after selling it once, as the purchaser would have that exclusive copyright.
Yeah, It is like paying for a home. You have to pay the property tax and all like a subscription, but you can lose it and get evict if you do not pay.
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Orkhepaj: so if gog gives ownership ,how can i sell the games?
in practice, it just looks like most steam games need you to occasionally connect to steam server
while gog games don't

renting is like that xbox
gamepass , you can play the games, but you cant after the subs ends
Not all forms of ownership lead to ability to legally re-sale. From food products that clearly state resale is not support nor allowed to land properties that do not allow resale unless allowed by committee and/or with select clients which can override your ownership or actual cut from the sales.
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amok: you borrow a book from a library, you don't rent it
Incorrect. Libraries have equipment, movies, games and device(s) rental services that are clearly marked as rental. At least here in the US. Some libraries also have rooms for "rent" for public speaking and group meetings.
Post edited May 31, 2021 by Arcadius-8606
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albinistic: Yeah, It is like paying for a home. You have to pay the property tax and all like a subscription, but you can lose it and get evict if you do not pay.
Even simpler, an analogy of dine-in only and flexible restaurants. For most DRM games, you can only play them with Steam active similar to how you must dine in in-person. You can only enjoy it only one way dictated by the creators.

But restaurants that do takeout (DRM-free) let you take home the product and you can do whatever you want with it - add your own toppings (modding), dissecting (reverse engineering), pair with your own drinks (external programs), freeze for later (archiving), etc. without any authoritative supervision.
Post edited May 31, 2021 by Canuck_Cat
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albinistic: Yeah, It is like paying for a home. You have to pay the property tax and all like a subscription, but you can lose it and get evict if you do not pay.
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Canuck_Cat: Even simpler, an analogy of dine-in only and flexible restaurants. For most DRM games, you can only play them with Steam active similar to how you must dine in in-person. But restaurants that do takeout (DRM-free) let you take home the product and you can do whatever you want with it - add your own toppings (modding), dissecting, pair with your own drinks, freeze for later (archiving), etc. without any authoritative supervision.
I like this analogy as well! :)
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Elmofongo: Because people can't comprehend the idea of managing installers and putting your games in a self made folder it seems.
Convenience always wins over consumers, every time.
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Elmofongo: Because people can't comprehend the idea of managing installers and putting your games in a self made folder it seems.
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StingingVelvet: Convenience always wins over consumers, every time.
Yes, that is what the internet provides. It is convenient to search a few words to find information, instead of the good old days where you read encyclopedias and books just to find some information that you were looking for. The world is moving more towards have easy access towards anything they need instead of having to dig deep in order to find what you need. Although some things do need to be dug deep in order to find some things that you were looking for, everything now has to be handed in a simple manner, which lowers the amount of brain function needed, which dumbs down critical thinking in society now.
Post edited May 31, 2021 by albinistic
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AB2012: Whilst I agree with you over the absurdity of store-front tribalism, the people "creating divisions based on launchers" aren't the gamers who dislike clients, they are the stores who normalized arbitrarily tying 3rd party games to the intermediary's proprietary compulsory software launcher in the first place (the equivalent of Walmart demanding CD's sold via Walmart be specially mastered to require a Walmart CD player). Which was basically Valve during 2004-2005 on the back of Half Life 2. The +25 years of gaming prior to this (late 1970's to 2004) for both PC, consoles (both disc & cartridge) & 8-bit micro-computers (C64, ZX Spectrum, Atari, Amiga, etc), most gamers genuinely didn't care which store they bought a particular game from as the discs / tapes / cartridges were all the same and the stores that sold them (Gamestop, Electronic Boutique, Amazon, local high street store, mail order, etc) never locked anything to themselves.

tl:dr - Stores that forced walled gardens onto PC gamers in the first place are the cause of the "stupid subdivisions". Complaints about clients / "all my games in one place", etc, are merely the ongoing symptom of that original cause.
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haidynn: It's odd that LiquidOxygen80 seems not to grasp that all the tribalism problems have everything to do with the intentional divisions created by Steam in the first place. You can't actively be against the tribalism if you don't recognize just how toxic Steam has been to the gaming community in order to secure a maximum amount of profit and make it harder for games to sell outside the Steam infrastructure.

Just like with Macintosh Fanatics who don't understand that the entire structure of Apple's business model is the complete control of the market at the expense of personal liberties. Only a company like apple can get away with releasing an update that intentionally breaks phones that use third party digitizers (happens when you break your screen and don't go to the Apple Store to pay extra and get it fixed)... and Apple can do that because they've so greatly brainwashed their followers into believing everything Apple does is for the good of the customer, not for the good of Apple's profit.

Tribalism starts because people stop seeing corporate entities as these profit driven beasts and claim "well GoG is fighting for DRM free games" instead of "Well GoG is fighting to maximize its profit in a tough market dominated by Steam." But the reality is that it's the lack of any actual choice that starts the tribalism... after all, Apple hyped Macintosh for years as being the cool kid OS since the only other major consumer OS was Windows. If there was actual competition in the OS market, that "We're the cool kids and those are the old people" game wouldn't have worked.

It's the lack of consumer choice and the brainwashing that the individual platforms do to keep it that way that drives tribalism.
That's because Steam wasn't tried and true when it launched. Yes, they tied it directly to Half-Life 2, but there were a literal plethora of companies out there who could have looked at their model after and followed suit, and did not. Steam got where it is due to lack of competition from the selfsame companies who were bigger than Valve and chose instead to place their products on their platform. At its inception, there were many, MANY companies who could have taken a crack at it after Steam's success post HL2, with major properties they could have done the same with. Tribalism has existed long before Steam and it will exist long after. Before storefronts, it was consoles, before consoles, it was cars, before that, it was religion. Don't be foolish. It's in human nature to divide, but that doesn't mean something as ultimately meaningless as store choice should be one of them. What Apple does and has, however, is actively enforced, something that Valve doesn't do. Hell, comparatively speaking, Valve's approach is pretty hands-off.

Again, don't get me wrong. I despise Apple as a company and I don't purchase their products, primarily because you were spending exorbitant amounts of money for a brand, not a solid product. I'm not a Stan for Gabe, by any means, but Steam frequently suffers from the atypical "hate us 'cause they ain't us" mentality from those who don't like their hold on their market. Can Steam do things better? Absofuckinlutely. No one's perfect, and anyone viewing any corporation like it's an individual entity needs to stop and examine their lives.

What I've been saying all along seems to be getting missed: Do your research. Look at each store's EULAs, partners, owners, and pricing, extras, etc, and make your decisions based on what actually effects your individual user scenario. Wasting your time judging the people who shop Steam is like sitting outside of Kroger and yelling at people because they don't shop at Walmart, Giant Eagle, Piggly Wiggly, Meijers, Community Markets, or whatever other regional supermarkets you have. Ultimately, if what you're wanting is more people to take notice of and use GOG, don't you think that yelling at the people who are still customers here is going to result in them simply not bothering to engage, thus, sending more paying consumers to other platforms? That whole scenario lacks common sense and is counterproductive.
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StingingVelvet: Convenience always wins over consumers, every time.
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albinistic: Yes, that is what the internet provides. It is convenient to search a few words to find information, instead of the good old days where you read encyclopedias and books just to find some information that you were looking for. The world is moving more towards have easy access towards anything they need instead of having to dig deep in order to find what you need. Although some things do need to be dug deep in order to find some things that you were looking for, everything now has to be handed in a simple manner, which lowers the amount of brain function needed, which dumbs down critical thinking in society now.
Only the simple or popular are easy to find while in a proper old school book it would have clearly laid out examples and an intelligent structure.
Given this is a very old topic, I've probably posted here before. Be that as it may. I'm boycotting shteam. Not bought a single game there, and never will.

At one point I had great faith in GOG for being the obvious alternative. Sadly that is no longer such a clear case. They're getting worse by the month, and it has become very difficult to excuse buying anything here as well now. Which means my game-buying days, and therefore game-playing days, could soon be over. Still have the old ones of course, and independent games (hey, we can hope!), but the gaming industry has really gone to hell over the last decade.

I miss the GOG that was :(
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albinistic: Yes, that is what the internet provides. It is convenient to search a few words to find information, instead of the good old days where you read encyclopedias and books just to find some information that you were looking for. The world is moving more towards have easy access towards anything they need instead of having to dig deep in order to find what you need. Although some things do need to be dug deep in order to find some things that you were looking for, everything now has to be handed in a simple manner, which lowers the amount of brain function needed, which dumbs down critical thinking in society now.
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§pectre: Only the simple or popular are easy to find while in a proper old school book it would have clearly laid out examples and an intelligent structure.
Sorry for the slight OT rant, but this really spurred something with me...

Accessibility to information has led to a majority of society thinking in less than 100 characters and confusing reading, comprehending, and analyzing, for skimming, keyword searching, and consulting aggregators and "fact checking" -- the electronic Cliff's Notes of ideas. To a few this excess of information has allowed for greater understanding, but those who synthesize data are clearly in the minority.

Back to Steam...

... I said it before...

... I try to buy very few things on Steam and try to spend as little as possible when I do. I hate the idea of essentially renting games' licenses. But...

... GOG's inability to acquire (and keep) a number of games I'm interested in keeps me updating the Steam client and searching. Plus, Steam has active groups that talk about turn-based games and military games -- and that keeps me going back for the group info and conversations and browsing the library and their recommendations.

To quote Brokeback Mountain... "I don't know how to quit you!" (Steam)
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kai2: ... GOG's inability to acquire (and keep) a number of games I'm interested in keeps me updating the Steam client and searching. Plus, Steam has active groups that talk about turn-based games and military games -- and that keeps me going back for the group info and conversations and browsing the library and their recommendations.

To quote Brokeback Mountain... "I don't know how to quit you!" (Steam)
My strategy is to take the games slow (100%ing them), finding hidden gems, stretching the value of the games by community discussions, and distracting myself with other activities. I can probably get it down to 1-2 games per month at my rate. There are plenty of indie titles I wouldn't have touched on Steam given the AAA catalogue that I'm appreciating right now on GOG.