So explain to me clearly what they are doing that is illegal? To me it seems they are saying the court that ruled against them was illegitimate itself.

Ergo, to say PiS is doing something illegal, you are begging the question and assuming from the start PiS is wrong about what PO did. Correct?

All I heard abut it - not much - is that PO cut some corners and tried to pack the court. That kind of worked. Now PiS is trying to block the part that didn't work, and somewhat undo the whole thing, and are cutting corners themselves.

I don't see any good guys in this. Me not liking PiS does not change that fact. They're all in the wrong, even if PO managed to keep their hands cleaner and not outright do something "illegal".

Fundamentally, the dispute is on who determines what is legal. PiS will win. It's plain obvious to me they will. They still have the democratic legitimacy in some shape or form. As a foreigner here I don't like that, but it's what I think is true.

No.

The Tribunal already ruled on the thing voted in by PO, and found it partially in violation of the constitution. But only partially. PO chose five new members of the Tribunal. The Tribunal ruled, that they only had the right to choose three, and that the president had no right to stall on accepting the oath of office from them, like he did. It also ruled that the new law passed by PiS that allowed them to choose new members (who were immediatel sworn in by the president) of the tribunal was in violation of the constitution. Both rulings are being contested by the goverment. which in itself is a violation of the constitution, which clearly states, that the rulings of the tribunal are final, and it is the duty of the goverment to publish them and act in accordance with them. There is absolutely no room for contesting those, and reasons given by the goverment are completely wrong, and have no basis in the constitution, they are sheer conjecture. Let me remind you, the new members of the Tribunal, from either group "in question" (chosen by PO or by PiS) had no part in those rulings, there is no doubt as to the legitimacy of the ruling body. This is the core of this crisis- the legal and final rulings of the Tribunal are being ignored and can in no way be enforced. Effectivly, with both president and parliment in the hands of one party, they have also assumed illegaly the judiciary power, as they assume the right to accept or not the ruling of the Tribunal. Basically- rule of separation of powers, the very basis of a secure democratic society is no longer being applied.

Yes, the law PO passed orignally was partially wrong, but have PiS just waited for the first ruling of the Tribunal and acted with accordance with it, that would be the end of it. Instead, they are using this crisis they knowingly manufactured, to make the Tribunal into a powerless puppet institution (the new laws they are woring on right now will basically paralize the Tribunal), so they can pass any law they want, even if it violates the constitution, since they lack the majority to change it.

To put it simply- PO proved to be incompetent by passing a bad law, but if PiS followed the rules it would be sorted out simply, by the Tribunals ruling. Instead they knowingly used the opportunity to destabilize the Tribunal and claim it's powers.

Thanks Breja

Some new info for me there, but it does not fundamentally change my opinion. Which let me be clear - I am not really defending PiS, I just think they will "win" this. If one can call it winning. Certainly the loss of popular support they suffered is documented.

As a technical question, how did the court decide which 3 out of the five go through? Alphabetical order? Isn't that akin to the court usurping legislative power? Why not reject the whole thing? I hope this is not echoing PiS rhetoric, but it's the kind of questions that I can think of on the spot...

Anyway, I agree 90% with your conclusion. Where I disagree is that PiS is not interested in claiming or assuming the court's power. It is interested in weakening it. This is an important difference, and it agrees with my argumentation, and it is supported by the details you gave me. It is important because it kind of makes my point that to save the "separation of powers" if we destroy the "separation of powers" we aren't actually achieving anything positive.

Basically, you are forced to choose to destroy the legitimacy of the judicial or the legislative or the executive branches. Do you see any real victory in any of those paths? Because I don't and I think the confrontational attitude is what PiS wants, to reinforce their power base either way. They do consider the judicial illegitimate, for whatever reason. Their actions prove it even if they have rhetoric saying otherwise: PiS wants to pass legislation and to weaken courts so they can't oppose it.

As a parallel, and I hope this isn't too unfair - but it's good rhetoric to make my point. You consider PiS legislative / executive power illegitimate, for whatever reason. Your advocacy proves it even if you say otherwise: You oppose PiS intended legislation and so want the courts to be strong and reject it.

Anyway it's very obvious to me that some kind of passive resistance is what is needed. And it is amazing how fast the fortitude and ability to sacrifice seems to have evaporated. Because the folks that managed to outlive communism would understand very well that some idealist actions are basically suicidal, and even counterproductive.

But well... that is indeed a debate that goes to the core of polish culture, and the fact I am here as a voice of it makes me uncomfortable, since I'm not even a polish citizen. I just don't see anything super special in this crisis. It's the usual culture wars becoming hotter. The established liberal consensus has corroded, and in one way or another is starting to crumble. Unfortunately it's more and more likely the baby will be thrown out with the dirty water.

The old parliament had the right (or even duty) to elect three new judges, to replace those who's term expired in November, so there was nothing wrong with that part. The problematic part was with the old parliament trying to elect two more, to replace two who's term expires in December, and that was ruled to be in violation of the constitution. It's stipulated which of the new judges where chosen for which term, so It's actually rather clear cut, and there is definately no usurping of the legislative power.

No. No, no. This is very important. No one is claiming that PiS goverment or the president are illegitimate. No one is disputing the legality of their current hold on the legislative and executive power. Not even among their most vehement politicial enemies, from any party. What they have the right to do, as a democratically elected goverment, I accept, even if I do not agree with. But their legal power does have boundries, and those I want them to respect. I do not want their legislation rejected by the Tribunal just becuase it's their legislation. I want any legislation that is in violation of the constitution rejected, and the decision of the Tribunal to be respected and carried out. One of the presidents most important roles, as stipulated by the constitution, is to "safeguard the constitution". And he is activly participating in breaking it.

I know that it's hard to belive that I'm being objective here, since I do personally strongly disagree with everything PiS stands for and it's probably apparent. But I also have a degree in political science. I understand the importance of respecting the results of elections, and would never dispute the legitimacy of a properly elected goverment just because I do not support it. I belive in the state, constitution, democracy and the institutions of a democratic system above anyones personal political views.

It's not so much you not being objective, it's what you are objective about :)

Anyway, the details you give me basically firmly convince me PiS is being very intentional in its agressive approach. Their rhetoric was already confrontational, and this basically shows it was not just empty rhetoric but that they, at some level, actually believe it, so to speak.

Then as I mentioned, the question is - when someone wants to get into a fight with you, should you fight or not? And fight how? This is where the subjective will always dominate. So let me here remind you of the context of the thread. Trilarion posted mockingly, then catpower inquiringly.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that our worst fears are warranted, and this is a naked power grab rather than business as usual with gloves off instead of the usual "politicians are all the same and nice to each other" mode.

My response to catpower seems to me still objectively valid. The level of tension existing is far from causing substantial levels of violence - by either side (no, firing NATO liaisons of some kind in an unfriendly way does not count as violence to me, despite the military context). Don't take me wrong, I'm sure somewhere or other tempers might have run high on the streets and some folks exchanged some pushes and shoves. Untill and unless that kind of stuff becomes organized it is basically meaningless and less important than soccer hooligans. So civil war is most assuredly not an objective way of describing anything right now, and even in terms of future scenarios it strikes me as hugely sensationalist if considered literally.

I think this is where you disagree with me. And you do consider the facts overall to constitute a coup d'etat of sorts. To me that is prety much ridiculous, but I'm open to earing more why you think so. I don't follow the press or TV at all. I get at this stuff from osmosis only so to speak...

But moving on, and going a bit deeper. I also in passing made a point to Trilarion, that the kind of dismissive approach that is mocking is counterproductive. Again I'm assuming the PiS intent to be the worst possible, and here we have an approach which seems to me provocative for no reasons other than feeling superior to the enemy. It plays into their hands and helps them justify their abuses. Your enemy might be a clown or a genius, but if you can't decide which then you need to think a bit harder which way you are going to act. If the genius is faek, then why worry and overreact? But if you sincerely believe the clown show is an act, then playing along is the worst you can do, and you should be planning the underground resistance already. Because remember, they won the elections, it's not like they lack support base - so you will have a civil war. Don't want to fight? Then just surrender from the start instead of acting seriously concerned.

So Breja, what kind of approach do you think is appropriate for the opposition to take? If we grant the premises about the coup d'etat, then it seems to me if they consider things to be so serious they should be trying impeachment, even lacking the votes, as a sign of intent and a symbolic rear guard action. They should be organizing a unified political front based on opposition to the PiS abuses, but not opposed to all PiS legislation. They should prepare subversive political actions to undermine popular support for PiS, akin to the way there were activist subversions of the communist regimes like Pomarancza Alternatywa (I would suggest a focus on the puritanical aspects of PiS platforms). And if it is really serious, like I posted higher, there should be an armed underground prepared.

Do you see how such actions will play into PiS hands and despite their objective righteousness, be used in the service of subjective justifications to escalate the confrontation further? :)

But well, at least me, I don't think the shit is that serious. Not yet, and I actually believe not anytime soon. PiS is overextending, and the reaction to it will play out in the next 6 months to 1 year. Despite the opposition also being mostly clowns, someone will be able to take advantage of this and eventually PiS will fall from power. Unfortunately, what would IMO be the most effective (less downsides), ergo the fluid subversive popular element, seems quite unlikely. I don't see the will anywhere, and this misguided hope that the opposition politicians or the judicial organs of power are going to change / prevent anything to me is a sign of that. The whole JOW topic was a perfect sign of the times. Despite rhetorically being huge during the presidentials, when the referendum came along how many people voted?

PiS is more mobilized, has a clear message ressonating with some truth to it, and will win this without ever needing to go to the extremes of a coup d'etat which I don't think they anyway intend. Sorry I guess. But I'm not too sorry because I just don't see this as such a big deal as you do. You're worried, but I think this is politics as usual, just a little less polite. They won power and now are splitting the spoils among the faithful. And knowing full well how despised and divisive they are, they are digging in, and while doing so overextending somewhat. If you ask me, I'd not even oppose PiS so much as coopt it. I'm not talking specifically of the constitutional court here, though even there for example I would suggest an approach of: Mr Duda is well intentioned but this shows how unprepared he was for this role since he does not understand the importance of upholding the letter of the law even when you disagree with its outcomes... blah blah This would have to be done in register of sincere support and just mild critique. Like a disappointed friend. You get it? Subversive rather than confrontational... but well... that's a different story. And I find my political machiavelism is extremely unsuited to the polish character anyway...

Anyway, have at it.

I do not seriously consider a Civil War a possiblity. We are, far, far from real danger of violence in the streets, let alone a war. But, and this is the key, you don't need violence and blood in the streets for a coup d'etat. What is needed, is for someone to seize power they do not have the right to by democratic mandate (winning the election gives power only within set boundries), and to attempt subverting the basis of the political system. And that is happening. The constiution is the cornerstone of our democracy, and it is being broken, contested and the goverment and the president are activly trying to subjugate in illegal ways the Tribunal that stands guard over the constitution.

The important thing is not to think of such things by some "hollywood" standards, expecting important things to happen in big, flashy ways. A coup d'etat does not require men with knives and militant groups taking over streets. Democracy can be slowly eroded. A democratic sytem can be changed into a dictatorship piece by piece. It's important to recognise when such things start to happen. If we wait for the stage of violence and military action to sound the alarm, it will bo to late.

This is not business as usual. That's the big problem. Many people think of it as usual politics, because politics are always about grabing power, and accusing the other guys of being the worst thing since Hitler. And so they stay passive, and things escalate, and before you know it civil liberties are gone, one by one. It's important to realise this is not politics as usual. We had many goverments sine 1989, and many incompetent or corrupt people in high places. But even they were never a threat to the system. Even when they were corrupt, they broke the law, but not the constitution.

What is to be done? Exactly what is being done. We had a big demonstration in Warsaw last week, we had multiple demonstrations all over the country today (I just came back from one). Pressure must be exerted on the goverment and the parliament, by the people, to show that what they are doing is not acceptable. I doubt it will convince PiS to stop, but it might erode the party's unity when they see the massive response to what they are doing. It may even lead to a new election, like 8 years ago when PiS ruled before. Worst case scenario it will just keep people alert to what is going on, ready to vote against PiS 4 years from now.

We are not in danger of violence, civil war or permanent dictatorship- but only as long as we oppose the threat in it's infancy, and refuse to consider acts against the fundaments of our freedom "business as usual".

Funny you should mention that. There actually was a counter demonstration of sorts, but it was a miniscule group of nationalists (I could not see them well, but could only have been very few). They were not violent, mostly they tried to make al ot of noise, one of them shouting through a megaphone. Actually, at one point he was demanding for the military to intervene :D Alltogether it really was pathetic rather than threatening, a show of impotence next to the 5 thousand strong crowd totally ignoring them.

The demonstration itself felt great, a very positive experience. Very reassuring, to see and be among so many people, from the very young to quite old, so passionate about democracy and respecting the lawfull, democratic state we have fought for so hard in Poland. And I do mean positive in every way- even though clearly anti-current goverment, it was not a grim, angry mob, but a cheerful crowd gathered to defend something together, rather than to attack.