I like this answer so much, that I'm never going to change my vote for the entirety of this Day. This is the hill I'm going to die on, gentlemen.

FlockeSchnee scum, got it.

Note that Joe hammered Yogs, not trent. trent's might be designed to throw town off his trail--we had all miscounted; Trent hammered to gain town points, but knew it wasn't hammering and depriving himself of a partner.

-------------------
None of the others do i currently have clear reads on.
Surely if GR was making it up about being a cop the real cop would have counterclaimed by now, and if not, this is the perfect time to do so.
So, I can reasonably trust his leads...unless Carradice is GF. Joe's point about IMBA is valid.
However, I tend to think the other scum or two might not have been looked at.

Note that we might still have 2 scum
If we had 4 scum (not 3+neutral as some, including scum(?) have said), it would be 10:4 or 4/14 = 28.57% of the players being scum.
At 28% scum, would a GF be included, or would this be considered scum-heavy? Note that 3 scum would be only 21.428% scum, which might be light.
>>>I would think it would be in scum interest to lie about how many scum there are in order to make town lazy and sloppy in hope that they would not hunt for as many scum.
Did scum do that? Or, would scum know that there was a 3rd party?

(Is there any kind of useful-to-scum-cop who could tell a 3rd-party? Or could scum, if they were given a regular cop draw the conclusion that there is, in fact a 3rd-party? All of this is speculation)

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-----------------------------

@Carradice can we please run 2 new spreadsheets:
1 including removed players thoughts/ratings, and 2 with only active players thoughts?
Somehow the confirmed scum ratings need to be highlighted (that column in green perhaps?)

This way sheet one will have only the ratings of those who are active in play and gives the best idea of who could be successfully taken to lunch, while the other would show everyone's ratings, including confirmed scum (ie who they were protecting)

As the 1st Sheet is longer, this can be the Top Sheet, and as the 2nd sheet is shorter that can be the fitted sheet, but we still need a pillowcase!

(Also, fwiw, I used the sheet far more than the chart, but YMMV, and I appreciate the work @Carradice went to in making them!)

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@Pooka GL with the interview!!! I really hope you feel better soon!

Vote Count

trent 1 - Pooka
Pooka 1 - trent


10 Players. Takes 6 to lynch.

Tell me more about these clues.


Eep. I don't like this assertion that Trent wouldn't know there was a Night 0, followed by:

An assertion that Trent MUST know there was a Night 0.

I'm quite taken with the idea that Pooka knows Trent's town, so the "You don't know any more than I do" is trying to undermine Trent's position, but overlooking the fact that Pooka's supposed to be believing that Trent DOES know.

Alternatively, Pooka's messed up on stress and cold and lack of sleep and doesn't know what he's saying. That's a less exciting interpretation.

Goodluckus Inyourus Interviewus Pooka

i personally hate voting someone who is sick almost (more than?) i dislike taking newbs to lunch d1. it smacks of kicking someone while they are down.

re the code thing...zfr & joe sucessfully used one of a selection of agreed upon words to give results of investigations. something about autumn leaves iirc. so i don't buy trent's claim that scum would never use code; there is also the possibility that "i'm too good of a player if I were scum to accidently use such blatantly scumtells, so this is actually town points" gambit was pulled.
I questioned ZFR and he roasted me for being so silly, it was his usual "i'm here reading but doing nothing yet" post he claimed... others backed him up until i felt silly and apologized.

So, scum do sometimes use code.

IDK if Pooka/Joe/Trent are scum or town (one of them is probably town). This might be TvT(vT)?

The issue is I see Pooka's argument that just because we never had it before doesn't mean it isn't possible... And I know there have been enough times I've messed up my tenses and rightly been called on it.

If Pooka meant "if you were town you couldn't denounce this possibility=the fact that you are so hard means you're scum", i agree. If Joe is right, of course, Pooka leans scummy while sick.

@JOE : Is that a vote on Pooka?

@Carradice--before you show these clues, could they hurt town by being aired? (Yes, this is me).

Joe is backing Trent up. Are the two scum together? Is Pooka? Time will tell.

I want the other players to talk.

On the subject of code, does anything about the Lift/Yogs exchange as summaraized in 921 seem off upon rereading?

The fact that scum chat already hit 300 posts when sometimes it doesn't hit 150 seems like there are awfully chatty scum (Joe comes to mind as a previously-demonstrated-to-be-chatty-in-scumchat-player) or there are 4 scum, not 3...or they have daychat or n0 chat.

now i cannot tell if pooka is scum running with my idea re d0 chat to sow confusion or if it is town seizing truth.

@ZFR 1/3 vote = Trent 1/3 vote = Pooka 1/3 vote = Joe


early versions of Dice's chart (I hope he doens't mind the name) show SPF disliked the play of joe yogs flocke caesar & me.... to tired to think.


EBWOP to above: trent hammered flocke, did not hammer yogs....

@ZFR: No Votus in this post.


That would be made gladly. Participants might want to make it easier by stating their views in a clear way. Mentioning suspects or people leaning Town in the middle of paragraphs only, might lead to said views being missed.

In D2, subsets of the spreadsheet were considered all the time, besides the main spreadsheet. The charts were provided as an alternative for those who find the sheet too cumbersome, or had any kind of color blindness, etc. Nobody has complained about that. If required, a gray scale might be devised, possibly.

Some innovations for the next iteration. Wondering if some of you learnt about matricial product sometime in the past (it is OK if you think you forgot all about it already, you know, it is like riding a bicycle ;-)
_________________________


# OPINION #

On @Trent's last posts: WeisseLamm's concern about yogs&trent using code was legit. Two explanations were provided: One, (A) supported by the Lamm and others: they were scum. The other: (B) they were two pals with some back history telegraphing for fun, which did not exclude that one of them was not Town.

Then, when it was asked the very legitimate question of whether there might have been a Night 0, yogs quickly dismissed it, and claimed it was a LAMIST question in order to muddy the waters. People, everything that made yogs react in this way was suspicious.

Also, yogs&trent seem to have so much back history together that they might even have devised some kind of code for the eventuality of being scum together, even without a Night 0.

But yogs becoming so nervous about a Night 0 being admitted as a possibility is not to be forgotten. It does not matter if there was a N zero or not, what matters is that he was nervous about the code thing being considered seriously and about the pair drawing suspicion early.

A confirmation of (B) theory was expected. By admitting so, they might have earned Town points with some of us, but they have not. Possible reasons: i) they do not want to damage their metagame; ii) trent is scum; iii) all the exchanges that fitted into the code theory happened just by chance (still, they fit).

A pity that the theory was published that early, since more examples of the code being used might have dispelled most doubts, probably.

In any case, if Trent was confirmed to be Town, he would have made so many sustained bad decisions as Town that they rival the series of sustained unfortunate events that afflict the Baudelaire children in Lemony Snicket's novels.

...

Same with ConsulCaesar if he was confirmed Town for conscientious scummy stances, even after being called out for that repeatedly.

Joe's posts leans more to SPF's style, but he has stepped on the mud way more, earning some Town credit (although not as much as Lift, to name one example, and his last posts do not feel especially Town-like), while Joppo... where is Joppo? who is even mentioning Joppo? No one!

In any case, remember that six are enough to hammer, be careful when casting a Votus spell.
_________________________


About how many antagonists are we facing: it is safer to consider that, at this moment, there are two non-Town and to take them both.

Never said scum wouldn’t use code, I’ve used code before as scum like you described for Joe and ZFR. Was on a scum them with HyperSomniaclive and Cristigale, Hyper was a role cop and depending on how they started their first post the start of Day 2 on revealed of the person they investigated had a role or not. What Pooka is trying to insinuate is totally different and way too convoluted for scum to do.

This is a highly questionable statement! Unfortunately trent has been known to get offended in this way in the past. So it's NAI - but it is definitely anti-town, if trent is town.

In any case, we have a solid conflict. And while trent's indignation at yogs felt genuine, the counter argument that trent is good at feeling genuine and playing the same no matter what faction he is, is true too.

So if we disregard feelings for the moment, the actions remain. And those look very bad for trent. Aligned with yogs, only voting yogs, when his lynch was a done deal anyhow, wanting to lynch Micro even after his claim, quickhammering Flocke...

Now I agree that the 'code talking' accusation is bullshit. Trent isn't a newbie that has to be coached by code talk. Even if there was a N0. Also trent is too proud to accept commands from anyone. So the code talk would be pointless in his case. However, his reaction to Pooka mentioning the code talk is also wrong: he claims that no townie would push this matter. This, however, is provably false! Flocke did push this matter and flipped Town. So trent used a provably false argument in his OMGUS vote.

So, I think trent might be scum after all. In that case the statement I quoted at the start of this post also sounds less petty. Of course trent!scum would prefer yogs (and thereby scum) to win.

Levicorpus trentonlf

All of this relates to knowledge of previous behavious of the subject under study. Is this knowledge helpful or throwing a dangerous bias? New players, such as SnowWhite, where unhindered by these assumptions, and thereby did not exclude what was before their eyes, just because of "X would never do this" or "gut feelings", etc.

Still, there is more:

In the same line of yogsloth overreacting to the theory on code, or to the question about a Night Zero.

Trent has also repeatedly used the card of appearing upset/angry since Day 1, which yogsloth also used. New players do not care at all if that happened in the past when Town or whatever. Meaning, most players's metagame is oriented to help them when they are scum, so you play to it and make thinly based assumptions at your own risk. In short: this is Mafia #64.

As per the part I underlined: I am guessing that is you joking, as I don't think you'd want to have us town lose the game.

Also(to you and Pooka) - Damn, the way you two go at it I wish I had another "watching" left as i'd surely use it on on of you two if I had the chance due to this back and forth. o.0

(@OP: Above is NOT a vote)
==================================================================

Tbf if we keep lynching those not locked town or close to locked town we'd likely win quite easily....thus Trent wanting you lynched(even if he was/is scum) would be a possible route to follow for all remaining town to win the game.
==================================================================

Hmm, you might be right, but then he did hammer on another "day" which is a very bold move if one is scum....still, it bears thinking on at any rate.

Yes, Carradice could be GF, but I don't think(like with the trent thing above) Carradice would post those lists of his/be so "out in the open" if scum and given such a role.

Tbh(and now that i've been more or less outed as per my role) I am almost certain we have a neutral faction due to some of the wording of my role PM and the results from "watchings" I could get each time(Not just town and scum, but also a third option)....so 3 scum plus 1 neutral sounds about right to me.

ALSO, as per the very likely neutral party: I also believe strongly(due to how that part of my role PM is worded and other factors I list below this bit) that that third party isn't anti-town

Pre-post Edit: Also Yog was running around as if scum had lost when he was about to be lynched & had been desperately trying to get micro lynched on D3 as well, so I think we likely only have 1 scum left and 1(or more) neutrals

(@OP: Above is NOT a vote)

I dunno about scum, but I pretty much was near certain we had a third party since the start of the game....I didn't want to bring it up, though, as some might have questioned how I could've known such and then I might not have lived long enough to get all 3 "watchings" done and reported.
---------------------------------------------------

Still, lynch either Pooka or Trent, we could then lynch the other on D5 if it turns out we made a mistake on D4's lynch.....i.e. lynching the other non-locked/non-near locked town one by one from scummiest to least(or even at random if that would work better) along with no one voting any of us would likely win us the game(even if scum got more NKs).

(Of course i'd need a more mathematically inclined player to run the math, but the above seems doable to me)

This is possible....I likely sounded all sorts of weird when playing in the prior game where I was sick(it was hard to concentrate with mouth/head pain and being on meds).

Anything by itself and bolded with a player name like that is a vote when done by anyone.

As said above, I think lynching either trent or pooka would be good, and then(if the one we lynch sadly flips town) we go after the other the next "day".....sound good?

Gotta re-read it(and will do so in a bit), but Lift could also be scum as well, though who knows for certain. :\

This is worth thinking on, I think.....thanks for making me think of it and bringing it up for others. :)
=========================================================

Done to post 980...to ALL: Make sure to note my ideas for lynching to win for town above and on my views/etc on a third party above....I will also reply to more in a bit, hopefully. :)

I hope you keep up with the charts as well...the sheet makes my head hurt. o.0

(I want to play a game, dagnabbit, not have to puzzle out sheets like that ;D)

I loved me some light algebra when younger, but i'm not into much higher level maths at my age....not like i'm gonna use it much nowadays anyways. :)

As I said in post 986, we COULD lynch either one and hope to hit scum(I find it odd both of them are going at each other's throats so much), and if not we go after the other one on D5.

A bit hyperbolic but this bit made me laugh thinking about it(also I love the film based off of those books).

Again, read my bits on third party player(s) in post 986...due to my PM text I don't think the neutral player(s) is/are anti-town

(If you want more on this lemme know and I will do my best to give what info I can within the rules from my PM)

(@OP: Above bits are NOT votes)
=====================================================================

In the very likely role madness game that this likely is, it could very well be a possibility, though.
=====================================================================

Never say never on Trent(or ANY player) changing their play style over time....heck, I changed mine a bit(started taking minor amount of notes, etc) to help town win in this game and to help fascists win in the SH game before this....so it IS possible.
=====================================================================

In his bah post(iirc) he even showed how he essentially outed himself with his claim post much earlier in the game, so he did it at least once.....also iirc I also suspected that and that's what put him on my list of top scum from D1.

@GR: Agreed on the likeness of 1 being scum and 1 being neutral. Both to be erradicated until new notice.

@Joe: Not forgetting your questions about scum influencing the charts. This has been taken into account from the beginning. If people can restrict themselves from lynching anyone during the weekend, hopefully the innovations will be helpful in that respect. Also, all things considered, the sheet helps Town more.

@Lift: to put the argument more clearly: dismissing the simple code just because "Trent is too proud" draws from 1) previous knowledge of Trent's personality. 2) An interpretation of the possible meaning of the exchanges that is highly arguable:

Where you see someone (yogs) calling the shots (and therefore something to be rejected by a proudish Trent), others may see a buddy in need asking for help. Even Athos could do that. Because in D1, people can get themselves lynched for nothing. If you see a pal in need, you go and help him if you can. That is the right thing to do and there is nothing wrong with that. And that includes Trent being Town.

Again, would hate to make a mistake with a possible Town Trent, so, personally, trying to hit scum elsewhere first might be preferable.
_____________

Also, try to submit your views clearly if you can, at least lists of main suspects etc. Clarity helps Town.
_____________

Watch out for people trying to mud the waters. In that respect, Joe is looking worse (sadly).

Are you saying the three-word code might be yogsloth's way of asking for help? Are you saying that having previous knowledge of people's personality isn't going to help us?

How do you mean 'mud the waters'?

Wow so much happened that this is an entirely new game.
With GR and the confirmed townies we probably have this game in the bag, unless a surprise comes out of nowhere.

I see that Trent's situation doesn't look good. I haven't played much with him or read any game he participated in. In the previous mafia he was the mod, and he didn't enter SH. So I can't have any bias regading him.
The way I see it, his actions don't look too townish but Joe is right that that code would be a terrible means of communication. It was bound to raise suspicions, besides if they had an N0 to chat wouldn't they agree on codewords that one wouldn't need to repeat to take the message across?

He did hammer Flocke early, but I'm not sure there was much point holding out any longer. Flocke did claim, he did answer our questions at last and was still looking "too scummy to live" - or he wouldn't have been lynched. So while I have some concerns with his vote they are on the same level I worry about every other voter that we still haven't cleared.

His declarations about wanting to see the scum win ring some alarm bells. So much so that it feels like it hit "scumminess overflow": it was so scummy that I find it hard to believe a scum would do that. As in... that's a bit too much for a scum that is suspected but not already agreed to to be the day's lynch.

Nonetheless the rest of the points against Trent stand. He did somehow look defensive against natural suspicions, he buddied up to Yog and somewhat helped keep the heat off him, and he kept a case against Micro who we know is town. I am not voting yet but so far I suspect him a lot.

----
Something did strike me as odd when Yogsloth was lynched. As Joe hammered he voted, then unvoted, took a few minutes then voted Yog again. It was pointless to do all this dance because the first vote was enough to hammer and no unvote would change that. But it could be hesitation to buss a scumbuddy, then after seeing there was no turning back trying to salvage some townpoints from Yog's lynch.