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General discussionHarry Potter and GOG Mafia #64(1552 posts)(1552 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 03, 2020
@ RWarehall, yoghsloth: Good speeches. Now, that's teaching how to play (not that any of the two reasonings is entirely without holes, though). If you two are Slyth together, you deserve an Oscar.
Posted February 03, 2020
Skimmed the rest of the game o_o

uhm, yeah. Lots of words. I didn't read all of them, sorry.

yogs v. RW is interesting keep it up fellas.

When Gamerager says "go JOE" are you trying to breadcrumb that we're on the same team? We're not playing that game any more!


Kick SirPrimalform

He's seems uncharacteristicly motivated.
Posted February 03, 2020
Votus Conputatio

SirPrimalform 99
yogsloth 99
trentonlf 99
Lif...

STOPPUS

Oh, for crying out loud...

DUMBLEDORE!
Posted February 03, 2020
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RWarehall: Hey Yogs...how about you do something productive instead of directing traffic to specific people at the drop of a hat with little to no real reasoning than trying to justify it after the fact. Look in the mirror at your own "game-solving".
I'm good, thanks

You got anything else over there in your bag of tricks other than "GameRager is town due to derpclear" and "yog suxx"?
Posted February 03, 2020
I see lots of people reading GR as town, but I'm not so sure myself. I underestimated him last SH; I'm not gonna give him a free pass this time. He may have poor memory but that doesn't make him dumb. He's perfectly capable of scheming while hiding under a veil of harmlessness.

On the other hand I understand Lift dropping his hard stance and see it as at least NAI. Lift appears town-ish to me but I can't really point why. Also gotta agree to leave house claims out of the game until we have an actual reason to use them.

As for acceptable lies that he and GR were discussing, the one time I can think lies can only benefit town is if a powerful unlimited investigative PR like a cop needs to claim to out an investigated mafia. In that case I'd say it is more useful to say they are N-shot, now all used, to reduce the chance they're the nightkill.

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JoeSapphire: Kick SirPrimalform

He's seems uncharacteristicly motivated.
I don't get your reasoning, care to explain? Are you talking from experience of how SirPrimalForm played in other games?
Posted February 03, 2020
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trentonlf: I have to agree with yogs in that trying to Town clear people is vital for Town to win. People get way too focused on who’s acting scummy and the mechanics of the game and lose sight of everything else, often to the detriment of Town. Town clearing someone is why I will say I have no desire to vote someone.
And who doesn't agree with that...
But...
Do you agree on Town Clearing someone for joking they are Slytherin?
How about Town Clearing the first person who points out the WIFOM of joking they are Slytherin?
Or the other "Town Clearing" for making a single fairly obvious post?
And after Town Clearing most every player during RVS for questionable reasons before the game has even really got going, he's acting as if the game is solved by his random Town clearing without any real analysis of what is going in in the game.

Because that is what Yogs was actually doing based on RVS nonsense. If someone makes truly insightful posts (but usually a pattern of useful posts), I might Town clear them. But I take the whole portfolio, do an ISO of all their posts in context to try to answer the deeper question of true motivation. You don't get that from declaring people Town at the drop of a hat for one maybe Town sounding post.

Here are these insightful Yogs posts:
26: I'm Goyle, from Slytherin. Who are y'all? I'm going to go read the rules now.
34: I'm Town-clearing Joe. Next.
36: But not you. Why are you linking to a post of Joe's with a quote he didn't say?
38: Ah nevermind, I legitimately didn't figure that out lol. But since we're here. What's ballsy about what Joe's doing?
41: OK, so you're quoting Joe to comment on Carr being ballsy or funny. null, whatever
49: Votus RWarehall
52: Hooch? I think she flies for the blue team if you know what I'm sayin' Annnnnnnnnnnd....
54: Hello person whom I have not met! I see agent gets a free pass for claiming Slytherin. I also see you have now tied me for lead wagon. I see I see I see.

Do you see this great load of content before my joke vote? He only got serious when I dropped a silly Omgus vote on him...yet is acting as if this was great content. Short posts with little to no real explanation at all...

What I remember of old Town Yogsloth was someone who would try to break the game open from Day 1. This game I saw what looked like going through the motions, maybe passing shade and pocketing while staying completely clear of the line-of-fire. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about him.

I just ISO'd SPF. Nothing sticking out to me at the moment, but I'd like to hear your case on him. Maybe you can explain what I'm missing and what is scummy.
Posted February 03, 2020
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Carradice: GR, yogs, claiming Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff: NOT holding those claims against them, since such claims would be quite suspicious if they were serious (meaning, if they had been made under duress, as a last resort) and we are still in Day 1. Let us say it is all dancing on the edge of the saber (and ordely retreating, for yogsloth).
I myself did it just cuz, if anyone is curious.

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Carradice: => By the way, trying now GR's suggestion of underlining names, to see how it looks. What do you think of these other possible conventions, to make reading easier (especially when trying to catch up)?

Bold for voting and anything addressed to professor ZFR.
Cursive for spells and arcane terms.
Underlining for names (instead of embolding them)?
=> for lines where there is a message that you want to stress out/be noticed.
Some of those sound good, tbh....I might end up using some of them later on. :)

I mainly use them, in case anyone is curious, to get others to notice certain reply bits without bolding them and possibly having anything misinterpreted as a vote/etc by the OP...and the other things I do in most threads(like lines between replies) to make stuff easier to find and read(when making multiple replies in one post).
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SirPrimalform: Ugh, got to go again. Stupid job.
Stupid ketchup. ;D

*Pic attached related....it's me in the Hogwarts dining hall right now*
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Lifthrasil: Damit. Typing on mobile sucks. GOG ate a long post again. On the pc i pre-type in a notebook for that reason, but right now I'm sick in bed.

I'll reply in detail later, after the painkillers kick in. Yes, I'll reply to you too, SirP.
You are a good egg and I hope you get well soon. :)
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RWarehall: I think almost all this discussion over RVS jokes is useless and the evolution into the discussion of Mafia philosophies (and even threatened lynching over playstyles) does nothing to legitimately scum hunt. All it is doing is providing a distraction.
Well that's mostly what day 1 is....a distraction before the actual game begins in earnest.

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RWarehall: The way a bunch of people jumped on Lift, makes it very difficult to read his alignment from this interaction. Both scum and town jumped on in this way will act as a cornered animal and pick fight or flight.
Dunno about the others, but I did it because I found that him(up until he dropped it) sticking to a lynch all liars ALWAYS stance while most others seemed to not be doing so seemed to be slightly anti-town play(same as scene's play in SH, even if he was right).

Now if we have a cop/etc...hopefully they will investigate Lift and put it to bed.....then(if they let us somehow know their result) we'll know if Lift is either a town(and thus focus on other players to scum hunt) or scum(and we'll know who to vote for).

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RWarehall: Something I frankly thought was impossible, but I'm nearly 100% certain GameRager is not Scum this game. Ironically, from an honest to goodness Derp Clear, not Agent's post which doesn't fit the definition.

GameRager is not Scum because his confusion over the rules seems totally genuine, and if he actually knew who was and wasn't scum, he's not going to make a post thinking they are cleared by the mod. It doesn't mean he can't be an uninformed malevolent 3rd party role, but he is unlikely to be scum. A good example of an actual Derp Clear, he misunderstood the rules in a way that scum (being informed) would know better.
Who knows....maybe i'm actually the scummiest scum who ever scummed and this is all going accordion to plan? :D

(The above is a joke, in case anyone doesn't that that o.0)

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RWarehall: In other news, I'm wondering why everyone is focusing on Agent/Lift regarding it being a lie and not Yogsloth who is clearly lying about the reasons for his vote in post 71 or what a weak excuse it is. And all his random "Town clears" for next to nothing. It's a good scum tactic called "pocketing" if he's scum. You tell a lot of people how good their ideas are and clear them making them feel at ease, when in fact you are the wolf in sheep's clothing. The flip side is I see a lot of people at Mafia Universe throwing town clears around like candy and never reflecting on all the times they get it wrong. It's called confirmation bias. And the only thing stopping me from going all in on "Yogs is scum" is the fear he's picked up this bad habit. But for all the talk about all the useful scum hunting we have going on, what have we actually discovered? Almost all the current votes seem to be either over the distracting RVS joke or perceived lack of analysis over a clear joke that has gotten out of hand.
Yog might also make a good investigation target for any potential cop/etc, I think....either Lift or him.....but even so we'd need to get the game to the next "day" before that would even be possible.

Also once the next "day" begins we'd have a wagon to analyze/etc. Of course i'm not saying we should rush a wagon.....just that once the new "day" begins we'll have more to work with.....a wagon to analyze and(hopefully) any breadcrumbs dropped by a cop/etc(if we have one).
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yogsloth: Yeah, see, this post. Another classic mafia term, for those unfamiliar, is “IIOA” meaning “Information Instead of Analysis”. That’s what this is. Lots of words, not much game-solving. I don’t like it.
I do, though....it helps sum up and call attention to certain posts for those like me who might've forgotten or missed something. :)

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yogsloth: Nope, that’s just me using Mafia and Werewolf terms interchangeably. Substitute “wolfy” with “scummy” if you like.
It's odd, though, as the user you replied to has a wolf in their avatar(iirc). But ok then.
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Also need a BUMP so I can post Part 2(too much text)...thanks in advance.
Attachments:
stupidketchup.jpg (59 Kb)
Posted February 03, 2020
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RWarehall: What I remember of old Town Yogsloth was someone who would try to break the game open from Day 1.
agent beat me to my usual early-game assholery

And you don't have to agree with my hot takes. They're all early Day 1 stuff, after all.

It's just as important to log one's views in the public eye as it is to have views at all.

If agent really dropped that Slytherin claim as an actual mafioso, I will be positive delighted! I'd love to be surprised. That applies to my other early town-takes as well.

I am a little bit offended you think I'm "going through the motions". I feel like I've been giving more takes and interacting than... most players. This is how you do stuff, RW.

Sitting and grinding on me and only me... isn't how you solve the game.

For example, I'd also totally vote this guy:

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ConsulCaesar: I feel if something has been muddying the waters it's Lift's zealous attititude towards the joke. The discussion has been monopolized by something that was not really relevant (IMO) and has ended in "OK, nevermind".
I invite everybody to read Caeser’s five posts and find the game solving.

Hey RW, how do you feel about Caeser?
Posted February 03, 2020
Now for part 2: mafia game reply boogaloo

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Lifthrasil: I HATE it when Townies lie. Even if it is meant as a joke. Even a joke will muddy the waters. ... Well, to be more precise: I hate it when townies lie and make stupid jokes when I'm Town myself. In those games where I was scum, I actually secretly loved Townies to do such counter-productive things. As long as the Townies muddy the waters themselves and fight over it, the real scum don't have to do anything but sit back and enjoy the show.
At least you are able to let go of it if not many are sticking to that play style/are more flexible than scene....it was due in part to scene, after all, that we won the SH game.

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Lifthrasil: Now for the question why I dropped it: it's partially the realization that I am mostly alone with my stance. RW is a believer in LAL too, but the problem is, when the majority of townies think it OK to lie as a joke, LAL starts to work against town. When townies lie, LAL hits them too. So a strict LAL principle should have been agreed pre-game. Just like with Scene's meta play. And that's the second reason for me dropping the thing: the accusation that I was making a 'Scene' was true. Even though that's not a nice thing to realize. I was trying to force my way of playing on everyone, while the majority apparently wants to tolerate lies as a joke.
You at least seem to want to win this for us town, and that flexibility will help us to a good degree, I think.

As for tolerating lies as a joke....I tolerate those(as I said) which give or can give town an edge....essentially anything within the rules goes as long as it helps town win.

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Lifthrasil: Speaking of other leads: beyond the lying/joking stuff, I didn't get any actual scum tells so far. But I got a few town-impressions. I think GR plays and reacts differently from when he was scum. Of course, he could have changed his style since last game. But so far I think he is Town.
It's because of the lack of champagne, isn't it? ;)

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Lifthrasil: @GR:
There is one thing I still disagree with you very much. If you have a Town-PR and you're asked what role you have, you don't lie. You just refuse to answer (unless it's claim-time anyhow) and lynch the one who asked for fishing. False-claiming is almost never a good idea!
As said above....anything to win.....in your idea if one refuses to answer that player could be seen as scummy and get lynched or scum could deduce they were a PR worthy of the next NK. To me, doing such and essentially throwing that town edge away is insane if one is town and wants to win, though I can see your stance likely influences your play a bit so imo you're likely more town than scum(though I still think any cop/etc should verify you to be sure at some point).

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Lifthrasil: About house-claiming: I don't see the point in it. Slytherins will just make up one of the other houses so there is nothing to be gained from it. However, since this is a closed setup, there might be a correlation between house and PR. Like 'All Gryffindor are PRs' or 'all investigative roles are Ravenclaw' or something like that. So premature house-claiming might give scum something to work with later on, when possible correlations become visible.
Of course it's not a given that such correlations exist. But it's possible and since we don't have anything to gain from house-claiming, I say let's not do it.
Well too late for me, and eh I find it almost as bad as your "town PRs should paint targets on themselves" style of play so I wouldn't follow it even if I hadn't claimed/stated house already for kicks. ;)

(I agree any others shouldn't do it unless they think it will give us town an edge or want to, however)
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JoeSapphire: Skimmed the rest of the game o_o

uhm, yeah. Lots of words. I didn't read all of them, sorry.
Bah, if I can make an effort to improve my play so can you......*hands Joe a notepad and a pair of reading glasses*....now get ta work. ;D

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JoeSapphire: When Gamerager says "go JOE" are you trying to breadcrumb that we're on the same team? We're not playing that game any more!
It was more a play on either someone else mentioning GI Joes earlier.
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joppo: I see lots of people reading GR as town, but I'm not so sure myself. I underestimated him last SH; I'm not gonna give him a free pass this time. He may have poor memory but that doesn't make him dumb. He's perfectly capable of scheming while hiding under a veil of harmlessness.
While I agree they should be suspicious of me until/unless I am proven town, I have to say the scheming bit made me chuckle......due to my poor memory and lack of notes(usually...I am trying to do so a bit as of late to play better in new games) it makes it hard to even try to scheme, (as one misplaced/mis-remembered thought/line and/or forgetting something crucial[as what happens to me IRL sometimes] would likely cause me to get figured out or cause it to all fall apart.

TBH when I was scum in the SH game I got luck & seemingly only won due to luck/scene's sticking to his play(which caused others to focus on him and possibly play a certain way to spite him in some cases)....most games I get lynched within a few "days" due to play style.

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joppo: As for acceptable lies that he and GR were discussing, the one time I can think lies can only benefit town is if a powerful unlimited investigative PR like a cop needs to claim to out an investigated mafia. In that case I'd say it is more useful to say they are N-shot, now all used, to reduce the chance they're the nightkill.
That seems a good idea for any such power roles, and might be better than claiming vanilla(for town PRs).
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Done for now, y'all.....anyone got any questions? :)
Posted February 03, 2020
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GameRager: Done for now, y'all.....anyone got any questions? :)
I'd like your take on Caeser as well.
Posted February 03, 2020
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Lifthrasil: OK. I'll try to reconstruct what I was writing before.

@SirP: I read your 'when is a lie not a lie' question as rhetoric, since you answer it yourself.
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Lifthrasil: A joke is something that I see town!agent making just as well as scum!agent, so it's NAI. Would it be possible that agent accidentally true-claimed? Hardly, it would be strange if he made the same error twice. Not absolutely impossible, but strange. Could he be true-claiming intentionally while wrapping that claim inside a joke? Yes. Maybe he wants to hedge against future reads (flavour, role, whatever) by being able to say: 'Haha... now you're trying to use that joke against me'. - That would be very brazen and not very likely, but possible. Especially since agent can safely assume that the majority won't lynch him over an 'obvious joke'.
I agree it's NAI by itself, but your entire case was that he should either be lynched for lying or lynched for telling the truth. The point I've been trying to make is that a joke is not a lie. If we agree that it's NAI but almost certainly a joke regardless of alignment, then I don't see your case for lynching him.

You have no particular reason to lynch him if the joke is NAI, because you've just admitted that it doesn't give you a reason to consider him scum. So without any particular reason to consider him scum, and assuming 3 scum in the game there's a 3/14 chance he's scum who told a joke.

As far as I could see, you weren't putting forward an argument as to why you think he's scum, but rather advocating a policy lynch. So I guess it's down to whether one considers a joke a lie.

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Lifthrasil: So, why my reaction to his 'obvious joke'? Well, part of it is just a pet-peeve. I HATE it when Townies lie. Even if it is meant as a joke. Even a joke will muddy the waters. ... Well, to be more precise: I hate it when townies lie and make stupid jokes when I'm Town myself. In those games where I was scum, I actually secretly loved Townies to do such counter-productive things. As long as the Townies muddy the waters themselves and fight over it, the real scum don't have to do anything but sit back and enjoy the show.
And that's the second part: agent knows that a 'joke' like that will stir up some reaction and that it will be a precedent for an acceptable lie. After all 'a lie is not a lie when it's a joke'. Town-agent would have no vested interest in muddying the waters in this way. Scum-agent would have. He could safely make that 'joke', knowing that the majority won't lynch him over it, and reap the benefits of a blurred line of what is acceptable.
I don't recall you ever wanting to lynch flubbucket for similar water-muddying (at least right at the beginning of a game, well and truly within RVS).

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Lifthrasil: The same is true for yogs, of course. It is more in character with him. He has quite a history of being jokey and useless early in the game, just like flubb, and only starts to actually play for his team later. Whichever that might be. So yogs is someone to keep an eye on just as agent.
That's interesting as it relates to the double standard I perceived with flub. I don't know Agent that well, perhaps you know him better than me? But it certainly doesn't strike me as wildly out of character.


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Lifthrasil: Now for the question why I dropped it: it's partially the realization that I am mostly alone with my stance. RW is a believer in LAL too, but the problem is, when the majority of townies think it OK to lie as a joke, LAL starts to work against town. When townies lie, LAL hits them too. So a strict LAL principle should have been agreed pre-game. Just like with Scene's meta play. And that's the second reason for me dropping the thing: the accusation that I was making a 'Scene' was true. Even though that's not a nice thing to realize. I was trying to force my way of playing on everyone, while the majority apparently wants to tolerate lies as a joke.
I'm generally a strong advocate for LAL, but RVS is RVS. I don't think Agent's joke was out of place with the tone of the game at that point. If it had come once the game was properly under way I would feel differently.

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Lifthrasil: I still think it would be better for town to follow a strict LAL principle, but I can't enforce it alone. So I back off and look for other scum leads.

Speaking of other leads: beyond the lying/joking stuff, I didn't get any actual scum tells so far. But I got a few town-impressions. I think GR plays and reacts differently from when he was scum. Of course, he could have changed his style since last game. But so far I think he is Town.

Carradice makes the 'leaning town' side as well - by intimidation with long ZFR-ish posts. ;-)

I have SirP on the slightly town side as well, for now.
I agree with all of those reads, especially that nice Mr Primalform. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on your position.

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JoeSapphire: Kick SirPrimalform

He's seems uncharacteristicly motivated.
It's amazing what a short sabbatical and a slow day at work will do for your enthusiasm.
Posted February 03, 2020
FlockeSchnee and his two posts can pretty much eat some rope, too.
Posted February 03, 2020
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yogsloth: I'd like your take on Caeser as well.
Posts by that user sparse and instructions unclear.....now have foot in jam.

Jokes aside: His posts are sparse and mostly just common sense stuff and minor musings....could lean him either way atm, tbh, though his rare posting isn't going to do him any favors I think.
Posted February 03, 2020
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SirPrimalform: Caesar and Schnee are both right in the pocket of "could be scum, could be low impact" so both of these folks that I don't know I'd like a lot more from please.
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Carradice: @FlockeShnee: What do you think? any impressions to share?
I was only skimming though the posts the past days, trying to "get a feel for the game".
I said, I will try and I will do so to the best of my ability. So here goes ...

Votus yogslosh

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My thoughts so far: (Feel free to point and laugh.)

SirPrimalform
Counts as town for me at this point. He finds the same things odd, that I do.
I really hope that's not gonna count against me should he flip scum at some point (if I'm still around then).

yogsloth
Looks scummiest to me right now.
What's that with RWarehall? The whole demeanor reads as aggressive bluff (I don't know if that's the right term) = scum to me.
And why so insistant, that agentcarr is town? (post 79)
"Our only objective is not to die namelessly in the final battle"? Sounds scummy to me. Good people just want (preferably) everyone (otherwise as many as possible) to survive, why do they need everyone to know their names to work on achieving that?

trentonlf
Maybe scum?
Jumping to vote SirPrimalform for the reason he stated seems suspicious. Like fishing for a reason to vote someone. But why pick SPF specifically?

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trentonlf:
I'd like explanations for "Would vote Lift, Carradice, RW or Pooka".

Lifthrasil
Probably scum?
This whole insistance on LAL on something that could easily be a joke this early in the game and nothing else to go on is weird. Especially since he is making excuses for Yogsloth doing the same thing in post 103: "Yogs just saw a stupid idea and compulsively went along."
Also: The Pooka/Lift dynamic going on reminds me of the previous (Supernatural) game and Lfit was scum in that one.

FlockeSchnee
Town, but only me knows that. (Even scum only knows that FS isn't scum.)

JoeSapphire
No idea at this point. But doesn't seem all that motivated?

Carradice
Counts as town for me at this point.
But mostly because I'm guessing from the posts made so far which character Carradice might be and that one shouldn't be scum. But it could be a false breadcrumbing or just randum fluff or me getting it totally wrong, so that might change later.

RWarehall
No idea at this point. And only few posts.

GameRager
Lots of posts, little to say? I have to check them more thoroughly at another time.

ConsulCaesar
Not many posts, little to say?

sanscript/Microfish_1
Not sure at this point and haven't really checked posts past number 151 onwards yet. Will do that at another time.

joppo
I have to check the posts more thoroughly at another time.

PookaMustard
I have to check the posts more thoroughly at another time.
Also: The Pooka/Lift dynamic going on reminds me of the previous (Supernatural) game and Lfit was scum in that one.

agentcarr16
Currently undecided. Maybe scum?
Maybe that first post was a joke, but "joking" again in post 117 is annoying. It's my first time playing Mafia and it's difficult enough already. If he's actually town he shouldn't be aiming to confuse us/me.

PS:
Since it took like what I felt was an eternity to put this into words (more than 3 hours), I probably missed posts in the meantime. I will catch up to those at another time. My brain needs a break from all this confusion.

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Microfish_1: This struck me hard. I suspect that since HP has 4 main houses in this school, but that the OP tallks about Griffyndor vs Slytherin, that the other two houses are in the game as independent factions, all of whom have to defeat slytherin, but have differing win conditions (e.g. a SK, last alive, a faction "all town and slytherin must die" etc.)
If that is true (other factions being present), it's not the complete house (of those not Gryffindor/Slytherin), only individuals residing in/associated with them.

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SirPrimalform: FlockeSchnee shows up next (FlakeSnow? Welcome by the way). Not much to the post, but it's understandable for a newbie.
Yep, about the FlakeSnow translation and thank you. Still trying to figure out how to spot things. Well, pratice is key with this, I guess.
Posted February 03, 2020
Votus Conputatio

RWarehall 2 - yogsloth, agent
Lift 2 - Pooka, GameRager
SPF 2 - trent, Joe
yogs 2 - RWarehall, FlockeShnee
agent 1 - Micro

Everyone else - 0
Not voting - everyone else

14 players remaining - it takes 8 to lynch.

Aha! It worked. Thank you, Professor Dumbledore.

When you see a vote count, please check that your name is against the right person.
Post edited February 04, 2020 by ZFR
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General discussionHarry Potter and GOG Mafia #64(1552 posts)(1552 posts)
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