@caesar: the better way is to bring suspected scum to l-1, let them falseclaim in desperation and have the real protector speak up. if they know they have that modifier.
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1. Eeeeeeehhhhhhhhh, idk? Joe's idea had validity if he was telling the truth and was on town's side. But we couldn't know if he would choose town to commute.

True. Again (overthinking at work) this could be scum finding another convenient truth to "confirm". So, while Joppo leans town, he is not hard-lock town. I think that so far Agent is lock-town just because noone has had more than two main roles, and we know he is neighborizor.

2. True, and you two both aren't scum.... Well, if there are two scum left, i would be shocked. OTOH, a ninja would not be watched/followed. So leaning townish on Pooka, no salad[dressing] proof [clothes].

3. 1384 is perhaps solid town theorizing. It might be scum shade, but it mirrors my gut regarding Lift. was since informed that the SK doesn't know who scum are, and scum would only know via scum-investigation. We did have a rolecop in Yogs; he lived into D3 which would be enough time to inv someone and pass on results.

IOW: we know Caesar was right about Joe, and I don't know if this was because:

(a) scum knew Joe was the SK>Caesar is the last scum>outs Joe as SK = throws shade on lift
(b) town!ConsulCaesar is suspecting Lift, paralleling my gut.

Does this clarify or otherwise answer your question re 1384, Joppo?

true, but i miscounted and with twilight fast approaching i didn't want to NL. Besides, with the exception of depending that whoever would be bussed would be pro-town, and the exception of Joe's convo here, there was 0 downside.

more later after irl-ing. also sorry about your bad internet at work, Joppo.

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willing to vote (alphabetically) ConsulCaesar, Joppo, Lift, Pooka

leaning towards Caesar or Lift, nagging feeling that Pooka is a ninja or that Joppo fake-claimed a role that nobody else had.

My head fry. Please don't be surprised.

I've got to agree with Caesar. Our successful lynches made the most use of mechanical information. GR ousted yogs. I put two and two and noticed Joe's N3 action wouldn't have been successful. Agent is confirmed Neighborizer, and we've got the IC. Look at what scumhunting in the traditional sense brought us. Mislynched Flocke for not hammering. Mislynched trent for the code and acting scummy. Ultimately we're so close to LyLo territory despite the boosts we got.

So, I'm interested in hearing out what a roleblocker or a protection role did in the night, especially if it's a non-cleared player. I believe it's how we will put the game in the bag once and for all.

Unfortunately I have an even worse feeling about Joppo. He tracked agent...who is confirmed Neighborizer. And that's after tracking me for a second time. His ability had the chance to narrow down the pool of suspects, and he still has unlimited uses to boot, and yet his choices are weak. Almost as if we're learning nothing of value.

Yes, you are right. That looks like an intentionally bad choice. One where he wouldn't risk giving us any additional information. If he is scum, he had a problem with his tracker claim if he claims to have 'tracked' one of us unconfirmed players. Either he goes into conflict with one, lying about his movements, or he soft-confirms one of the unconfirmed players. Going into conflict could lead to his own demise. Narrowing down the suspect pool is contrary to the interest of scum. So what would a claimed scum!Tracker do? Track confirmed players and confirm them further. That is the absolute minimum of information that he could give Town.

About talking mechanics: I still think a bulletproof role should keep their bulletproofness hidden and asking for it really looked off. Whether a doctor should claim depends on whom he protected. If he protected one of the confirmed players, as I assume, we don't learn that much new. We could conclude that that confirmed player was the NK target - which would just confirm what we assume anyhow. However, if a supposed Doctor protected one of us unconfirmed players, that would mean that scum, for some reason, targeted one of us. That would be a genuine gain in information and therefore would be worth sharing.

If the kill was prevented by a role-blocker, sharing would even be a necessity. Because if the NK failed due to one player being blocked, that one player was probably the one who tried to do the killing. However, I guess that the hypothetical Roleblocker would be aware of that and would share without being prodded.

OK. Let's ask you these questions that arose directly.

1. Why do you try to imply that no actions might have been taken this Night? Why would Scum not try to kill one of us? They win by Nightkilling and they can't risk leaving confirmed roles alive. So they only would have foregone their NK if they intentionally want to lose. Your implication that no actions might have been taken reads very strange!

2. Why did you feel the need to waste a tracking shot on agent for his 'puppy dog eyes' joke? You all were giving me a hard time for taking agent's joke too serious and now you claim to have done the same? Why didn't you try to narrow down the suspect pool or actually find scum? Joe was an ADMITTED serial killer, as you put it. What reason would scum have to protect a serial killer that could quite likely target himself? Scum, especially a hypothetical scum in agent's confirmed position, would be VERY interested in eliminating an SK and would not try to prevent his lynch.

You know that. You have shown a good understanding of the game and good deductive skills in the past as observer. So you must have been aware that there was no way Scum!Agent would blow his cover to protect an enemy SK. Yet you decided to waste a tracking shot. After already wasting a second tracking shot on Pooka. Why?

Yes, Agent is a confirmed neighbourizer. Which, as you would do well to remember, is not a role that is exclusive to Town. Go ahead and check the wiki if you want. After the weird unvote, plus Micro's unfortunately-timed hammer that took us the chance to question Agent and Agent's chance to show it was just a joke, I was uneasy and wanted to check the godfather theory. If you think about it from a game balance perspective, town had so much player-clearing potential with a 3-shot cop (who would also clear himself in the process) plus an IC plus Carradice's JOAT doctor/roleblocking shots plus my tracking that it wouldn't be surprising if scum had something to counter at least some of that.

And don't even say Miller is the counter. Unless GR had chosen you, it would count as much as you being vanilla. If anything it counters the JOAT's confirmation as both are subject to the luck of one player choosing a specific target.

About me tracking you a second time: the first time there were other scum who could have killed in your place (or at least that was the theory at the time). The second time I did was the time you were actually cleared. I wouldn't waste a second shot on you if the first had cleared you, and you were nearly as suspect as the one who everyone would think I would be tracking. So the shot you said I wasted? It worked very well for us, especially you.

As for next night, just tell me who I should follow. That better?

Unfortunate as that may be, we could have no way of knowing your intentions. My choice was what I said and I stand by the fact that, given the information I had at the time, it wasn't a bad choice.

1- Just as one theory that could account for the lack of an NK or any signs that an action was performed. Not that it must have been it, of course. As for their motives if they were doing it, hell if I know. But you're wrong about one thing: scum wins by nightkilling AND MYSLYNCHING. Maybe that would be their goal in that case? Sowing confusion and driving the next myslynch?

2- Go check every single one of my D1 and even D2 posts if I said you were wrong to suspect that joke. Go ahead, I'll wait here. I don't need to go and look back because I know the most I said about it is that you were tunneling on him - in the sense that you were so focused on him that you were ignoring that other players were acting scummy as well.

3- You are right that Scum!Agent might not have need to protect the SK, but as the number of confirmed townies is still big enough that Town is more likely to win than lose Scum!Agent could want to keep the SK around to thin the crowd of townies. And I'm not sure what the rules say about who wins if one player from each faction gets to the last day and the SK and the scum manage to lynch the last townie. I suppose it means both win as they would shoot each other at night otherwise and end in a tie?

Just a question for those that think I shouldn't have wasted resources going after Agent because he's mostly confirmed: where was Joe hiding when I suddenly smelled a fish? Oh that's right, he was among the players mostly confirmed.

For the record: Agent may be more likely town than not, but it's not like we should simply disregard all theories of scum!Agent or scum!Pooka. We almost did that once and Joe was all the more happy for it.

That said, I am going to invest a lot more of my attention towards Lift and Caesar. Caesar in particular hasn't been giving us too much substance until now and mostly hangs around in the corner of our eyes. Would that simply be his style? Could he be wanting to limit his exposure?

Only that Scum!Agent is part of that 'big enough' number of confirmed townies. With 'big' being two, in this case. So the SK was quite as likely to go after him as after the other 'confirmed townie'.

Also your comparison with Joe doesn't hold. Joe wasn't cleared by the cop. As you are aware, agent as Scum only works if the is both Godfather and Neighborizer.

I wish you would have done that last Night. If you really are a Town-Tracker, that would have been way more useful than anything you did so far in this game. I still think that, if you really were a Town-Tracker, you actually would have invested your attention at Night either towards me or Caesar.

Yes, you make good arguments. You are skilled with words. But as the bible says: you shall recognize them by their deeds. And I think your deeds - or lack thereof - show that you have been intentionally holding back.

forcepushus Joppo

Vote Count

Joppo 2 - agent, Lift

Not voting - Caesar, Micro, joppo, Pooka

Joppo closest at L-2

6 players. 4 to lynch.

Exactly. Agent would have to be a Godfather to pass GR's investigation and that was the theory I got suspicious of when I decided to track him. I wanted to prove or disprove that for sure. I know that could only happen if Scum!Agent held that modifier, just as a Scum!Pooka wouldn't be where Pooka is without a ninja modifier. But Pooka didn't do anything that merited an investigation (and it would be useless to track Ninja Pooka anyway)

Well ain't that sweet.
Couple posts above you were on my case because I chose the same person twice. Now it would have been totally ok to track Caesar, whom I already tracked.
You were turning your attention to Caesar earlier today as the next lynchable. And then Pooka says something and you suddenly change gears like "Hey I can totally push Joppo for the lynch instead". You know who would gladly love if Town got rid of their tracker? Scum would. They would probably do it themselves, except that they're in a tight schedule against the confirmed players and can't afford to. Last night's lack of a NK must have already been bad enough, I think there's no way they could spare a night to off me before and even less now. But to have town myslynch the only PR that can still detect who is doing NKs would be their dream come true.

I find it hard to believe this isn't Scum!Lift driving townies to myslynch one townie after the other.

Tarantallegra Lithrasil

Not wanting to interrupt the current discussion (I will add my suspicions eventually), but I have a new question for everybody:

How many scum do you think are left? Do you feel confident there is only one? Or could there be still two?

I am starting to develop a theory but what it might mean is different depending on the number of scum left.

bump

I think only one is left. I am operating on that basis now.

Also Joppo does make a good point. Lift is getting suspicious with how he just goes with what I am saying. The problem is, I'm not sure if a scum Lift is behind that or a town Lift. It's hard to tell.

True enough. If you were a real Tracker, I would have preferred if you had tracked me. I just picked up your wording. That you NOW want to focus on unconfirmed players instead of doing so with your supposed power.

And I find it hard to believe that you are really a Town-Tracker. We already talked about that yesterday. It was already yesterday a point of suspicion against you how consistently ineffective your trackings were. But instead of trying to improve that you went for a target that had a minimal chance of actually being scum. If you are Town, you have to admit that that was a very bad choice! Your OMGUS-vote, however, is not an unexpected choice.

How about actually sharing your thoughts instead of just asking questions and promising something for later? That isn't the first time that you make this promise. Your question about the number of remaining scum has also already been answered by several players. How about reading what others wrote before asking a question, that has already been answered?
In case reading is too much of a bother: everything more than one remaining scum would be quite imbalanced with a second killing role in play. So I (and others) assume that we only have one scum left.

By the way, my shifting my main suspicion to Joppo doesn't mean that you're off the hook. I still get the feeling that you just contribute the absolutely bare minimum. So if you have a theory, start sharing please!

sharing bare minimum here, off to irl some more :-D