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I thought this might be interesting enough to avoid derailing a different thread and give it its very own.

How would you define these concepts? Keep in mind there's a sliding scale between them, it's possible to be somewhere in between. What category would you put some of your favorite stories in?



I would perhaps go with the popular definition that says Hard Sci-Fi focuses on hard sciences (physics, biology, chemistry), and Soft Sci-Fi focuses on soft or social sciences (psychology, sociology, etc.):

Hard Sci-Fi: It's interested mostly on the technology, speculating ways in which it could be realized and how it might work (ex.: Neuromancer).

Soft Sci-Fi: It's interested on the societal consequences of the technology at play, it gives only cursory explanations of how that technology works, it's where technobabble comes from (ex.: Star Trek).

Science Fantasy: It's a fantasy story in space, doesn't bother to explain how its technology works at all, it's just a means to an end allowing the intended story to be told, may introduce outright supernatural elements (ex.: Princess of Mars)



This is of course very subjective. Some people put great emphasis on scientific accuracy, that what separates the genres is how much it sticks to the scientific theories generally accepted at the time it was written, and that the introduction of any supernatural element taints the universe as a whole and transforms all the work into Science Fantasy. For me it doesn't matter if it all turns out to be nonsense, just how much time was dedicated to explain and develop the technology.


How does this work for videogames though? The narrative and themes of Mass Effect strike me as Soft Sci-Fi, yet the game does feature a codex that goes highly in depth on the workings of every piece of technology in the game, as well as the biology of all the different races. Do you take that in mind when classifying it since it is baked right into the game? Or do you consider it supplementary material and only consider the parts where you actually play through and the main narrative?


How does it work for large franchises? I argued in the other thread that Star Wars is Science Fantasy, but I wouldn't doubt that in one of the many extended universe works all the technology present may have been explained. Can you make both Science Fantasy and Science Fiction in the same universe? Does one override the other? Does the existence of scientific explanations in the larger universe make future works automatically Sci-Fi? Or is the presence of the Force, and Force ghosts, etc. make it forever Science Fantasy regardless of how much time you spend trying to explain hyperspace?
Post edited January 07, 2017 by DaCostaBR
My favorite sci-fi books are the Dune and the Foundation books. It's very hard to put either in one of the categories. Imho the fantastic elements, be it sci-fi or fantasy shouldn't be the goal, but rather a tool on which the story builds. The aforementioned books are light on classic sci-fi elements at times, but his also makes them more believable.
To me, it's a sliding scale based on scientific accuracy. I would still consider psychology and sociological concepts to be part of Hard Sci-Fi. But the more hand-waving and telekinesis and more questionable science, the further down the scale to science fantasy it goes.

So to me, Hard Sci-Fi does it's best to reflect as many science realities as possible.

Soft Sci-Fi takes liberties but doesn't totally abandon scientific concepts.

Science Fantasy might as well be a soap opera in space where science is played fast and loose.
Well I guess I´m kind of SciFi Fan that don´t fit in any of your Concepts:

What I want ? many Diffent Races and even more Ships and Battles:

So far only Space above.., Star Trek , Babylon 5, Star Wars (the orginal 3) are real great and Stargate Sg1, Atlantis, Space Rangers,BSG remake are OK Series for me.
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DaCostaBR: How does this work for videogames though? The narrative and themes of Mass Effect strike me as Soft Sci-Fi, yet the game does feature a codex that goes highly in depth on the workings of every piece of technology in the game, as well as the biology of all the different races. Do you take that in mind when classifying it since it is baked right into the game? Or do you consider it supplementary material and only consider the parts where you actually play through and the main narrative?


How does it work for large franchises? I argued in the other thread that Star Wars is Science Fantasy, but I wouldn't doubt that in one of the many extended universe works all the technology present may have been explained. Can you make both Science Fantasy and Science Fiction in the same universe? Does one override the other? Does the existence of scientific explanations in the larger universe make future works automatically Sci-Fi? Or is the presence of the Force, and Force ghosts, etc. make it forever Science Fantasy regardless of how much time you spend trying to explain hyperspace?
I really don't see the need to go so in-depth to lable everything. Whatever happened to playing a hunch? The element of surprise, random acts of unpredictability? If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.

Those genre labels are helpful when used in general sense, like someone saying "I'm looking for more science fantasy like Star Wars" so you can point him towards Barsoom or Flash Gordon rather than Star Trek or Arthur C. Clarke's books. But when we start splitting hairs the labeling becomes more trouble than help.
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DaCostaBR: I thought this might be interesting enough to avoid derailing a different thread and give it its very own.

How would you define these concepts? Keep in mind there's a sliding scale between them, it's possible to be somewhere in between. What category would you put some of your favorite stories in?



I would perhaps go with the popular definition that says Hard Sci-Fi focuses on hard sciences (physics, biology, chemistry), and Soft Sci-Fi focuses on soft or social sciences (psychology, sociology, etc.):

Hard Sci-Fi: It's interested mostly on the technology, speculating ways in which it could be realized and how it might work (ex.: Neuromancer).

Soft Sci-Fi: It's interested on the societal consequences of the technology at play, it gives only cursory explanations of how that technology works, it's where technobabble comes from (ex.: Star Trek).

Science Fantasy: It's a fantasy story in space, doesn't bother to explain how its technology works at all, it's just a means to an end allowing the intended story to be told, may introduce outright supernatural elements (ex.: Princess of Mars)



This is of course very subjective. Some people put great emphasis on scientific accuracy, that what separates the genres is how much it sticks to the scientific theories generally accepted at the time it was written, and that the introduction of any supernatural element taints the universe as a whole and transforms all the work into Science Fantasy. For me it doesn't matter if it all turns out to be nonsense, just how much time was dedicated to explain and develop the technology.


How does this work for videogames though? The narrative and themes of Mass Effect strike me as Soft Sci-Fi, yet the game does feature a codex that goes highly in depth on the workings of every piece of technology in the game, as well as the biology of all the different races. Do you take that in mind when classifying it since it is baked right into the game? Or do you consider it supplementary material and only consider the parts where you actually play through and the main narrative?


How does it work for large franchises? I argued in the other thread that Star Wars is Science Fantasy, but I wouldn't doubt that in one of the many extended universe works all the technology present may have been explained. Can you make both Science Fantasy and Science Fiction in the same universe? Does one override the other? Does the existence of scientific explanations in the larger universe make future works automatically Sci-Fi? Or is the presence of the Force, and Force ghosts, etc. make it forever Science Fantasy regardless of how much time you spend trying to explain hyperspace?
I think you may well be getting your categories wrong.

Hard Sci-fi, I would agree with you , generally tries to encompass the "real" science within the novel.

Soft Sci-fi, this term does not exist as far as I know it. You should class this just as sci-fi and this would include a huge range of ideas, so vast in fact that they cannot be summed up in any other label.

Science Fantasy, this term should be considered Fantasy, the science pre-fix is not needed.

I have not seen your arguments in the other thread but with regards to Star Wars , it would probably come under the title of Space Opera, which would be within Sc-fi.
Hard Science: for me this includes not only a focus on technology but alternatively a focus on scientific ideas or possibilities, in other words things like Star Trek (the TV shows), Blade Runner, Solaris and Moon. These are movies and shows where scientific and technological ideas are at the center.

Soft Science / Science Fantasy: these two are more or less the same thing to me. It's Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, Men in Black and the Marvel stuff. Scientific and technological ideas are not really the focus here, they are "merely" there as an environmental prop or as framework for the storyline.

I'm not arguing the former is better than the latter, they both work as entertainment.
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lazydog: -snip-

Science Fantasy, this term should be considered Fantasy, the science pre-fix is not needed.

I have not seen your arguments in the other thread but with regards to Star Wars , it would probably come under the title of Space Opera, which would be within Sc-fi.
I think I saw the argument that Star Wars is rather Science Fantasy because the Force is pretty much just a fantasy element, while the story plays out in space. Therefore Science Fantasy (definitely saw the term before).

On Hard Science Fiction I also understood it as being about the degree scientific plausability (since sociological themes etc. can still be discussed at the same time, e.g. in Ringworld or Revelation Space).

@Ricky_Bobby: Star Trek and Hard SF? Really? =/
Post edited January 07, 2017 by Reever
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lazydog: I think you may well be getting your categories wrong.

Hard Sci-fi, I would agree with you , generally tries to encompass the "real" science within the novel.

Soft Sci-fi, this term does not exist as far as I know it. You should class this just as sci-fi and this would include a huge range of ideas, so vast in fact that they cannot be summed up in any other label.

Science Fantasy, this term should be considered Fantasy, the science pre-fix is not needed.

I have not seen your arguments in the other thread but with regards to Star Wars , it would probably come under the title of Space Opera, which would be within Sc-fi.
Actually, the argument initially wasn't strictly about adherence to science. It started with somethin I said, but I was talking more about storytelling, and how Star Wars is sci-fi in terms of the "decorations" so to speak (space, starships, blasters, aliens) but relies mostly upon tropes and cliches usually associated with fantasy (knights, mystical powers, ghosts, chosen ones etc.)
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lazydog: Soft Sci-fi, this term does not exist as far as I know it. You should class this just as sci-fi and this would include a huge range of ideas, so vast in fact that they cannot be summed up in any other label.

Science Fantasy, this term should be considered Fantasy, the science pre-fix is not needed.
Pardon me, but I didn't understand if you mean you reject these classifications, or if you're saying you've never heard of "Soft Sci-fi" and "Science Fantasy" being used as classifications.
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Ricky_Bobby: Soft Science / Science Fantasy: these two are more or less the same thing to me. It's Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, Men in Black and the Marvel stuff. Scientific and technological ideas are not really the focus here, they are "merely" there as an environmental prop or as framework for the storyline.
I think the distinction is apt, in that you may describe 1984 or Fahrenheit 451 as Soft Sci-Fi, but I wouldn't call them Science Fantasy.
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Breja: snip
Because whether you should apply the classification to individual works or the universe of the franchise as a whole, or to whether supplemental material should be taken into account, or if that material is considered supplemental at all if it comes alongside the narrative just isn't woven into it, are all valid academic questions to make, and "why bother" isn't an answer, it's a refusal to discuss.
Post edited January 07, 2017 by DaCostaBR
well all SciFi iss Fantasy if you ask me, but Star Wars (the old 3) are pure Fantasy it´s like Super Ninjas in Space
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DaCostaBR: ..
I think you mix hard sci-fi up with stuff within spitting reach we have not bothered to build yet. ;)

Mass Effect (what I played so far), most of Star Trek and Babylon 5 are very far in the hard SciFi section. Not as close as Neuromancer & not as "hard" as 2001 A Space Odyssey or (for its time) Frankenstein.

Science Fantasy. Yeah, Sword & Sorcery mixed with SciFi. WH40k; Star Wars.

I have not heard of "Soft SciFi". Not sure it makes much sense. In the end its all about Science Fiction anyway ;)

Overall I love all of it and its subgenres and is sub-sub genres (i.e. Neuromancer -> Cyberpunk SciFi; Shadowrun -> Cyberpunk SciFantasy).

Interestingly now that I think of Star Wars and Shadowrun. Both Sci Fantasy; but while Star Wars stays mostly with all it does in a galaxy far far away and far out of reach while Shadowrun mixes several real tangible elements with the magical & supernatural.
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lazydog: ..
Science Fantasy, this term should be considered Fantasy, the science pre-fix is not needed.
..
Technically correct. That or "Space Fantasy". But practically that train is gone since the term "Science Fantasy" is established for "Once upon a time in space" SciFi. SciFantasy. Fanta... god damnit; you know what I mean :P
Post edited January 07, 2017 by anothername
Further dividing a genre like Sci-Fi like that isn't useful.
Genres are used to classify something, in this case movies or books. If I say Sci-Fi is my favorite movie genre in general, everyone knows what I'm talking about.
The fact that you feel the need to specify what exactly "Hard" or "Soft" Sci-Fi is, shows me that the distinction isn't useful. It's just as quick and much easier and clearer to just talk about the contents directly. For example: "I like Sci-Fi, especially the stuff that explorers the human soul and society." Or: "I like cool space adventure flicks." There you go, everything is clear.
Arguing about whether Star Wars is "Science Fantasy" or Sci-Fi... whatever? It's a story with classical fantasy elements, set in space. Easy, clear.

In reality we all use example anyway. "I like more-out-there Sci-Fi, like Star Trek." Or: "I prefer grounded films like Gattaca over phasers and Wookiees."
Science Fiction: Is about things that, in theory, can happen. (Well, mostly; sometimes you need to have things like non-realistic space travel just because the stars are too far apart for a reasonable story otherwise.)

Fantasy (including Science Fantasy): Is about things that *can't* happen given our understanding of the physical world. Typically involves something like magic (though sometimes called something else, like "the Force").

There are a few other variations on these settings that are interesting:

Fantasy with ancient technology: Seen in, for example, early Final Fantasy games (particularly 1, 3, and 5), you have a fantasy world, but there are some remnants of some ancient high-technology civilization. The setting typically feels like fantasy, but high technology exists in places like ancient ruins.

Post-apocalyptic: Some cataclysm has destroyed the world, or the world has decayed over time. More common in science fiction (see Wastenand/Fallout), but occasionally seen in Fantasy (Dark Sun, one of the Battle for Wesnoth default scenarios (unless they removed that one)).

Dystopia: Reverse of a utopia. Typically, the world is ruled by some not-so-nice ruler(s). Book examples include Brave New World, 1984, and The Handmaid's Tale. Not as common in video games, but Dragon Wars might qualify (and unlike the books mentioned, is actually a fantasy dystopia rather than a science fiction one).

Alien fantasy: Fantasy world (though can be combined with ancient technology or be applied to science fiction (perhaps even hard science fiction)) in which there are no humans. The SNES game Paladin's Quest is a good example of this (that game is fantasy with ancient technology).


Edit: One more thing: This post deals with literary genre, not game genre. Whether a game is science fiction or fantasy has no bearing on whether, for example, said game is an RPG.
Post edited January 07, 2017 by dtgreene
I have heard of these classifications and I also reject some of them them.

Soft sc-fi: In my opinion it has only been introduced after the classification of hard sci-fi, by people that assume that described as hard there must be an opposite of soft.

I would further argue that the term science fantasy is again a fairly pointless definition.

There is sci-fi and there is fantasy. No point mixing the two up, they are quite distinct.

Of course, sci-fi is of such a huge range I understand if you or anyone else thinks differently.

But please for the love of god, mark fantasy as a separate definition. Libraries do it and so do book shops. For good reason.