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rjbuffchix: Survey says: more DRM and DRM-like schemes coming here in the near future, surely with plenty of fanboy apologia about how it's not reeaaallly a DRM, "it's a Reward." If they are really asking how important is DRM-free, they've lost the plot completely. I guess we do have the odd Skyrim here or there to look forward to but I've made a conscious effort that if a desired game is available at a smaller, purely DRM-free store, to buy it there instead of here. No more funding Galaxy and CDPR (I don't want to support your dream of becoming a Rockstar) if I can help it.
All I can say in response to this 'survey' is: backup your offline installers. It's clear from GOG's line of questioning that things are going to get worse here over the next couple of years.
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Time4Tea: All I can say in response to this 'survey' is: backup your offline installers. It's clear from GOG's line of questioning that things are going to get worse here over the next couple of years.
Nah, that's all just interpretation. You can find any argument in the questions if you are looking for it.
You may or may not be right with your conclusions, but the line of question does not imply anything.
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BreOl72: B) If Hitman or any other DRMed game would be here, I(!) still would not have to buy them. So, again: no problem.
You really can't see a problem with this, if a flood of DRMed games were to be allowed onto the GOG store? Then where would the incentive be for publishers to release games DRM-free in future?
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mdqp: Not to be a busybody, but how come so many can't agree to disagree?

DRM is a matter of principle to some, and a "practical matter" for others. There is a lot of overlap, and of course what's "practical" is a very subjective assessment, so I can understand the disagreements, but it seems like people are talking in circles.

What I mean is that, even if you don't agree, is it really so hard to see each other's point, as flawed as you might think it is? For example, those who want no DRM, no matter what, do this because they worry about the future, and the possible consequences down the line. They also find it distasteful to receive arbitrary restrictions. There are also other concerns, such as ownership over our licenses, accessibility and so on, all of which have a lot of validity (I personally feel the ownership part as very important, and to this day I generally regard most of my purchases outside of GOG as "cheap rental").

There is a lot be said for preservation, and what can be accessed legally despite buying a game, and I imagine those are all self-explanatory arguments.

On the other hand, it's not difficult to see a practical argument as well. For example, if a game used to have an online component, but the service is long dead, should it be denied a presence on GOG? I think almost no one would be against having the single-player here. But then, if another game has DRM for the multiplayer, should it be denied?

If you look at it practically, even if you are against DRM, there would be no meaningful difference (if anything, the one with DRM is even better than the other, since it's still playable online if you are willing to compromise). Is there really a point in waiting for the online to die, before we can have the single-player DRM free? Or perhaps to be fair to all these game we should deny any on here which have content currently unavailable because of present or past DRM, which is extremely restrictive and might disqualify perfectly good single-player experiences from ever appearing (heck, I don't know the entire GOG's catalogue, but this might be relevant for a lot more games than I can think of, perhaps even some classics).

Someone brought up the bonus for Cyberpunk 2077. I think it's needlessly restrictive and arbitrary to block it behind Galaxy (even if I personally use Galaxy), but I can see why it's not a big deal for many. I mean, you are probably aware of games having unique bonuses for pre-orders or purchases on certain consoles or gaming stores. It's a ridiculous trend, but should any game with unique content on console be labeled as DRM-ed and refused sale on GOG?

Sure, it's annoying that they are dangling the extra in front of you with the Galaxy requirement, but is it really different from having a special skin for, say, a playstation version? Both are arbitrary, silly restrictions, but it's easy to see why it's not considered as core for such games. Just like some games might have problems with licensed music or other temporary deals for extras, cameos and whatnot, some content might really be legally impossible to obtain at this point in time, should that bar any version of a game from appearing?

These are just some examples, mind you, and sure you can argue against any of those, but can't you really see the point the other is trying to make? Everyone should push GOG as far as they are willing to, because that's the way to get the best out of GOG, but people usually have their reasoning for their positions, there is little to be gained from getting hostile with each other (yes, even if you think the "other side" is undermining your efforts by being overly rigid or flexible with their interpretations).
I like your argument, and I also use Galaxy, I like to keep statistics of hours and achievements.
I've seen people criticize games because multiplayer has DRM; otherwise (at a certain point) no one would buy anything.
What I like most about GOG is the freedom it gives when buying a game, regardless of whether the multiplayer requires Galaxy or not.
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Knightspace: It's worthless stuff for two games made by a company that's owned by GoG's publisher. I understand where you guys are coming from, but overblowing THOSE things is just weird. Yes, gog introducing more and more drm stuff IS concerning, but this thing isn't. It's just a dumb incentive for people to download their launcher.
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adamhm: GOG's parent company. And it is a big deal, not because of the content itself but what the restriction of it represents. It's the "foot in the door"/"thin end of the wedge"/"camel's nose under the tent"/"whatever-you-want-to-call-it" that will be used to justify progressively more egregious use of DRM later, by which point it will be far too late.
It's good to see some voices of reason in this thread. Some people who actually understand why these issues are so important.
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mdqp: Not to be a busybody, but how come so many can't agree to disagree?
Because some people are trying to make objective things subjective. Breja puts it nicely.

DRM is a matter of principle to some, and a "practical matter" for others. There is a lot of overlap, and of course what's "practical" is a very subjective assessment, so I can understand the disagreements, but it seems like people are talking in circles.
DRM is a technical property. Whether you care about it is a different matter entirely; the argument here mostly seems to stem from the fact that some people refuse to call it what it is.

I think the tone of the discussion would be very different if people stopped saying "that's 100% drm-free" and instead acknowledged "unfortunately yes, there's some DRM, but I don't mind it." People get agitated when definitions are bent and abused to make obviously false statements.

On the other hand, it's not difficult to see a practical argument as well. For example, if a game used to have an online component, but the service is long dead, should it be denied a presence on GOG? I think almost no one would be against having the single-player here. But then, if another game has DRM for the multiplayer, should it be denied?
We're mostly not discussing this because that ship sailed looong ago and GOG never promised DRM-free multiplayer (as far as I know). Some of us are still championing for DRM-free multiplayer and there are helpful forum threads for people who care about the issue.

Someone brought up the bonus for Cyberpunk 2077. I think it's needlessly restrictive and arbitrary to block it behind Galaxy (even if I personally use Galaxy), but I can see why it's not a big deal for many. I mean, you are probably aware of games having unique bonuses for pre-orders or purchases on certain consoles or gaming stores. It's a ridiculous trend, but should any game with unique content on console be labeled as DRM-ed and refused sale on GOG?
It sounds like you misunderstand the issue. The issue is not that there is unique content. The issue is that to access the content you've paid for (on GOG!), you're forced to accept DRM. GOG could easily provide unique content (and indeed they do provide lots of such with many many games, some of which I believe are unique to GOG) as downloadable extras that work with the offline installers and have no DRM.

We don't say a game on GOG has DRM just because it's missing some content that's exclusive to another platform. That's "just" missing stuff, and depending on what that stuff is, it ends up in the "games that treat gog users as second class citizens" list. I don't know if anyone's added a game over some cosmetic pre-order bonuses or platform specials, but I don't think people care much about that stuff.

To word it differently, the existence of a version of a game that has different content than my version does in fact not magically manifest as some kind of online-activation requirement in my DRM-free version. If my game is DRM-free, it is DRM-free no matter what other variants exist.

Sure, it's annoying that they are dangling the extra in front of you with the Galaxy requirement, but is it really different from having a special skin for, say, a playstation version? Both are arbitrary, silly restrictions
It's true that that both are arbitrary silly restrictions. However, a special skin in a playstation version does not concern GOG customers in any way. What concerns GOG customers is the promise that the game they buy on GOG is DRM-free, but then it turns out a part of it requires online activation. "Coreness" of that part is irrelevant as far as the DRM issue is concerned.

Just like some games might have problems with licensed music or other temporary deals for extras, cameos and whatnot, some content might really be legally impossible to obtain at this point in time, should that bar any version of a game from appearing?
No, you're completely missing the point. There's a lot of "missing stuff", for various reasons. A PC release, or a GOG release, or a re-release, may be "inferior" to some other release, and that's unfortunate, but providing the best release of a game isn't one of GOG's core promises. We tend to accept it (begrudgingly). What we don't accept is "hey we got this stuff for you.. but we decided to slap DRM on it!" It's a completely different thing. A broken promise. We should know what we're buying (and if that's an inferior release, we make the decision whether to accept that or not). We should know that whatever we buy has no DRM in it.

These are just some examples, mind you, and sure you can argue against any of those, but can't you really see the point the other is trying to make?
I think we all understand each other's point pretty well, but we don't accept to arbitrary bending of definitions. Just call DRM what it is.
Post edited December 28, 2022 by clarry
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clarry: I think we all understand each other's point pretty well, but we don't accept to arbitrary bending of definitions. Just call DRM what it is.
Where logging in to a MP server is often called DRM, but really it's not. If there is no licence check, it's not DRM.
"DRM" has that "R" in the middle, which means it's managing "rights", it checks if you have the right to play that game or listen to that track or view that video. If that does not happen and they let anyone join, even those with illegal copies, then it's not DRM.
A login can be used for DRM, but the login in per se isn't. But if the login is in fact connected to a licence check, then of course it is DRM.


edit: An example would be the latest EOS integrations into Unreal or SR4. While they are certainly most annoying, it's not DRM in the sense of the word since they do not check if you are entitled to play the game. The login is only necessary for identification of the player.
Post edited December 28, 2022 by neumi5694
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clarry: Just call DRM what it is.
To follow up on your (excellent) post, I'd like to again ask those giving us pushback: what's in it for you to try and shut down "the complainers"?

Seriously, let's game this out. If the complainers have their way, the result is halting the DRMification of this store. If those pushing back against us, telling us "it's not a big deal", have their way, there is a greater-than-zero chance that more DRM comes to this store. If you folks care about DRM-free too, as you claim, then join us instead of this weird fight against us. Because no matter how smug and confident one may be in the idea that "GOG would never go full DRM", you could still be wrong. The consequence of the complainers being wrong is...nothing. The consequence of the "moderates" being wrong is that the biggest DRM-free store on the market could morph into something else. That means no more DRM-free Skyrims in the future, and serious consequences for DRM-free gaming as a whole as it would retreat into an even smaller niche. Can any of the "push backers" who can't stand us "complainers" explain to me any differently?
Post edited December 28, 2022 by rjbuffchix
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Filled it out, I clicked Pro DRM-free responses whenever possible, rejected any subscription or service, and the need to focus on offline.
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Time4Tea: All I can say in response to this 'survey' is: backup your offline installers. It's clear from GOG's line of questioning that things are going to get worse here over the next couple of years.
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neumi5694: Nah, that's all just interpretation. You can find any argument in the questions if you are looking for it.
You may or may not be right with your conclusions, but the line of question does not imply anything.
It's clear people have their own interpretation. Because nothing in the survey came off as GOG pushing DRM. Most questions were about:
-Satisfaction with GOG
-Services
-Subscriptions,
-Do you game mostly with people or alone.
What genre's do you play the most, and would like to see more on GOG.

If the survey had no questions asking about DRM free. People would make something up about GOG pushing DRM or something along that line.
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wolfsite: Filled it out, I clicked Pro DRM-free responses whenever possible, rejected any subscription or service, and the need to focus on offline.
I did the same as you.
Post edited December 28, 2022 by Syphon72
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Knightspace: Dude, i'm Polish, half of what we do is complain. And believe me, i've done this a lot, even here. Porn games on the landing page, removal of main patches, publishing inferior versions of the games or supplanting older editions with new ones, bending to publishers and authoritarian countries. All of this is infuriating, but THIS? This is nothing. You are irrationally angry over NOTHING.

Don't assume things about me just because your weird obsession with useless incentives to use their garbage launcher is apparently something earthshattering.
You don't get to declare what is significant to me (sidenote: ALL countries are authoritarian by definition, but that's a different convo not suited for this forum). I am a fan of the "pr0n games" and have no problem with them being on the main page. In fact I welcome it. Why are you being so iRrAtIoNaLlY aNgRy over it?? (See the problem with declaring what matters to someone?)

I am not obsessed with the incentives. I do deeply care about "owning/possessing" what I buy. I left PC gaming for nearly 15 years thanks to people like you telling me Scheme DRM is no big deal, when to me it is. By the way, your "this isn't DRM, I'd fight against actual DRM, but I'll just try to shut down discussion of DRM for now" approach will CAUSE more "bending to publishers" that you claim is a concern.
The main problem here is that people end up arguing about definitions, because of this there is no clear message for GOG to receive as it just comes out a confused mess with the community more focus at taking shots at each other to win an argument that will mean nothing 5 minutes later.

If you want to show support for DRM-free fill out the survey, send the survey to others that also want DRM-free. Don't argue and attack others because what they see as DRM-free doesn't line up 100% with your definition.
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Syphon72: It seems to be for selected users. Probably people who bought a lot game's this year.
I received more games for free this year than I have bought. And everything I did buy, was heavily discounted.
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adamhm: Apparently it's being emailed to "GOG's best customers", which sounds like it'll be exclusively targeting users who continue to spend lots here despite all the BS with Galaxy, DRM etc. and thus will have less of a negative opinion towards those things...
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Braggadar: That was my thought as well. They don't want a consensus from the community as a whole, they only want opinions from people who don't have enough issues stopping them from buying. Speaks volumes of GOG's direction.
Yeah - they really should listen more to no-money-spending non-customers, instead of those people who keep their business running.
Because that's how businesses operate most successfully.
SMH
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Syphon72: It's clear people have their own interpretation. Because nothing in the survey came off as GOG pushing DRM. Most questions were about:
-Satisfaction with GOG
-Services
-Subscriptions,
-Do you game mostly with people
ALL of these can be interpreted as asking for responses about more Galaxy DRM, and likely WILL be interpreted that way by the suits running the survey, even if said suits know that wasn't the intent of the users responding.

Satisfaction with GOG...are you cool with us locking content behind Galaxy?
Services...do you like our required optional client for multiplayer?
Subscriptions...(could take other forms, but) would you use our required optional client to access your subscription content?
Do you game mostly with people...how willing are you to keep using our required optional client to play multiplayer, amass achievements, etc?
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I also used to survey to tell them how there support has gone downhill ever since they introduced the bot.